00:00:00 - Dana Kadwell
You know, one of the biggest mistakes we see from venues is their goal is to sell the person on the venue on the tour. Like, they want to take that hour, and they want to convince this person that this is the place for them, right, where good marketing and good sales is. By the time they get to the tour, they're already 80% sold.

00:00:17 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:00:17 - Dana Kadwell
And you're just. You're just cinching, like, clinching the deal. Welcome to Hustle and gather, a podcast. Found the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I'm Dana.

00:00:34 - Courtney Hopper
And I'm Courtney.

00:00:35 - Dana Kadwell
And we are two sisters who have started multiple businesses together. And, yes, it is as messy as you think, because we know that starting a business isn't easy.

00:00:43 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, we've done it four times, and on this show, we talk about the ups and downs and the hustle and the reward at the end of the journey.

00:00:49 - Dana Kadwell
And this season, we're talking all about the messy middle, you know, when you.

00:00:52 - Courtney Hopper
Have to decide to either grow or scale your business or maybe even take a step back.

00:00:56 - Dana Kadwell
Last week, we talked with Taylor Cusick-Hollman about marketing during the messy middle.

00:01:00 - Courtney Hopper
So this week, the two of us are talking about the lessons we learned. Taylor. All right, nice. That was fun. That was. I felt like I was in school. Like, I was in marketing school.

00:01:10 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, yeah. No, but in, like, a way that was, like, easy to understand, and that was, like, super practical.

00:01:16 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. As easy as marketing can be.

00:01:19 - Dana Kadwell
It was, like, conceptually understanding it, you know? Yeah. We learned, like, how to actually do it.

00:01:24 - Courtney Hopper
I know. Like, marketing is this, like, ever changing beast, though. Like, it's, like, not even a thing. I'm thinking, like, the days of when you, like, had this mom and pop, like, soda shop that just opened up and was there and did the same thing for, like, 30 and 40. 40 years, it's, like, over.

00:01:37 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I think what's interesting, the principles of it hasn't changed. Like, I think that we've always said, any business class you sit in or, like, sales class, like, they're buying you. They're not buying the product. They're buying you. They want to connect with you. They want to feel invested in you. Like, I don't think that has changed from generation to generation, year over year. It's just, what's changed is, how do we reach them in that way?

00:01:59 - Courtney Hopper
Well, it's harder because there's so. There's so much information out there. Like, you are, like, through the woods, like, weeding out. Like, where is my client actually getting their information? Or, like, what, two or three or ten sources. Are they getting their information from, like, it's so different. Whereas before it was, like, a newspaper, a television ad, and walking down the street.

00:02:19 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:02:19 - Courtney Hopper
It was those three things. You know what I mean?

00:02:21 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:02:22 - Courtney Hopper
Like, think about, like, how, like, outdated even. Like, billboards are now. Like, I think that every time I drive down Florida, I'm like, why are people still paying for these? Right?

00:02:30 - Dana Kadwell
Cause you're looking at them as you're driving to Florida.

00:02:33 - Courtney Hopper
I've never responded at one point, like, on anything, like, from a billboard. Like, it has not changed my decision. Yeah, but I don't use the billboard. I just use the little, like, sign. Like, is that little on this exit?

00:02:46 - Dana Kadwell
Really?

00:02:47 - Courtney Hopper
Do they pay for that?

00:02:48 - Dana Kadwell
I think they do pay for that.

00:02:49 - Courtney Hopper
Okay, but, well, that makes sense.

00:02:51 - Dana Kadwell
Like, when we're driving to Florida. Well, one. Now I just know because we know the, like, by heart where the chick fil a is and all that stuff are. But if I see, like, if I want, like a cookout or something, and I'll see it's like, a cookout's in 20 miles. Like, I'm waiting at 20 miles. I'm going to go at that.

00:03:05 - Courtney Hopper
Well, I know there's one on exit 98 in South Carolina, just FYI.

00:03:09 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but that's the only time I use Bill Murray's. But I don't. I'm not going to buy. If I was going to car accident, I'm not going to buy the law. I'm not going to call the lawyer.

00:03:16 - Courtney Hopper
I'm not. Right, right. And I've never been saved by a sign in South Carolina either. No, I don't.

00:03:21 - Dana Kadwell
Interesting enough not want to start going to church because of it.

00:03:24 - Courtney Hopper
I've never wanted to explore an old community, old person community.

00:03:27 - Dana Kadwell
I haven't either.

00:03:28 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, it's very interesting, the things that are on billboards as you're driving down to Florida.

00:03:32 - Dana Kadwell
Maybe we're not the audience, but yet.

00:03:35 - Courtney Hopper
Here we are driving down to Florida. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm just saying I think the game has changed, and I think that it's constantly changing.

00:03:41 - Dana Kadwell
Totally. Well, and you think about it. So, like, we're, as the driver is the only one paying attention. Whereas before, you'd have a whole car of people paying attention to the billboard and nobody's looking at anything but their device.

00:03:53 - Courtney Hopper
I know it is silence in my car on the way to Florida. It's.

00:03:56 - Dana Kadwell
Unless it's lovely, my car is throwing up. But, you know.

00:03:58 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, that's true. That is like one of my favorite Florida stories. When we were going out to Florida, we were carpooling, and we were, like, on the road, maybe, like, 45 minutes. We were in Fayetteville. We were not even out of the state at this point. And Dana calls me and is like, Ada. Ada's sick. We're gonna pull over. She's throwing up.

00:04:15 - Dana Kadwell
Whatever.

00:04:16 - Courtney Hopper
Great. Gets it all cleaned up. We get back in the car, and it's not like, ten minutes later, maybe ten minutes. She calls me and says, henry's throwing up. And Mason was like, can we just leave them? I was like, no, we can't leave.

00:04:30 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but then you did. And then I did it. I followed the wrong car.

00:04:34 - Courtney Hopper
Wrong.

00:04:35 - Dana Kadwell
I was like, why is she going this way? And I was like, it wasn't the same make. It didn't have the same anything. It was just a black car that I followed because I was so in a tizzy about what was happening. Well, now there's a rule. They're not allowed, because my kids do get carsick, but they're not allowed to get on their devices until we are on a highway fair. They are not. If it's a stop and go, it is down on the floor. We are having a conversation about life. I don't know. Not looking at our phones.

00:05:02 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. So I was like, are we ever going to make it?

00:05:04 - Dana Kadwell
No. We're never going to put it together. They did. That was the only. That was last time.

00:05:06 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, yeah.

00:05:07 - Dana Kadwell
And they do. To be fair, they throw up. Really? Like, cleanly. They throw up in a ziploc bag.

00:05:11 - Courtney Hopper
Which I think is genius.

00:05:12 - Dana Kadwell
And then you zip it up, but they have to throw it away.

00:05:15 - Courtney Hopper
I know.

00:05:15 - Dana Kadwell
I'm not going to touch the warm bag.

00:05:19 - Courtney Hopper
I thought that was ingenious. I'm like, this is someone who's a seasoned thrower upper cleaner. Yeah.

00:05:23 - Dana Kadwell
There's a whole. There's a whole box.

00:05:25 - Courtney Hopper
I know.

00:05:25 - Dana Kadwell
Compartment of Ziploc baggies.

00:05:27 - Courtney Hopper
I know.

00:05:28 - Dana Kadwell
Gallon size.

00:05:29 - Courtney Hopper
Gallon size. Gallon size. Right. That is not what this episode is about. But in case you're wondering how to deal with your child who might get carsick or air sick, here are some best practices.

00:05:41 - Dana Kadwell
Okay, back to why billboards are not working. Yes. Okay. What was your favorite overall takeaway from this episode for me?

00:05:49 - Courtney Hopper
And she said this as a geriatric millennial. And I think, like, technically, I am a geriatric millennial, but I don't really relate that way. Call myself a zineal between an ex and a millennial because I'm right on the cusp. Like, literally the year of is that the gig economy is real, and I have a hard time accepting that.

00:06:04 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:06:05 - Courtney Hopper
Yes.

00:06:05 - Dana Kadwell
Agreed.

00:06:05 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. What? Like, seriously, like, the days of, just, like, you had this one role and this one job, and it was like nine to five and it had health insurance. It's not what people want anymore.

00:06:16 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but I think it's also, like. But I think it also pays. I think it's also an indication of the world we live in, too, because it's not a singular skill you need anymore.

00:06:28 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:06:28 - Dana Kadwell
Like, there isn't, like, you think about it and, like, what job does someone do? Just one thing, right? There are some, I'm sure, like, in corporate, like, you know, my husband, by production. Yeah. My husband does one job. Like, he does one thing. Right. Like huge Dell, big corporation ever. When you're talking about medium to small size companies, there isn't that anymore, because everything is so nuanced, everything is so expert needed. So, like, you. It's almost like you have to, like.

00:06:53 - Courtney Hopper
But it's in my mind, and I guess this is maybe, like, where you talk about the gig economy is real, is that full time equals loyalty. Nothing else feels loyal to me.

00:07:04 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but the thing is, if the gig economy is real, there'll always be someone to replace them, so why does it matter?

00:07:09 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, that's a good point, too. Well, that's very calloused of you.

00:07:12 - Dana Kadwell
I'm just saying it's the truth, though.

00:07:14 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. But I think it's that my overall takeaway from our marketing podcast was that the gig economy is real and probably. It's probably more efficient.

00:07:24 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:07:25 - Courtney Hopper
Like, if you really embrace it, for sure. But I think it. I think it requires a director.

00:07:29 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, yeah.

00:07:30 - Courtney Hopper
Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't get you out of the game.

00:07:32 - Dana Kadwell
No. You stuff with someone, like, you have to have a good delegator for sure. Otherwise it doesn't work.

00:07:37 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I agree.

00:07:38 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:07:39 - Courtney Hopper
What was your overall?

00:07:40 - Dana Kadwell
I really liked her whole conversation about, like, mechanics versus art. And I felt this, like, for business wise and a little bit of personal, like, in life in general. Like, she's basically saying that when you have found yourself in a place, like, where you have this growth, like, you're no longer. You don't need to be focusing on the mechanics because you obviously have that down. Well. Like, now you're working on the art, like, you're working on finessing, you're working on the pretty, you're working on making sure how people feel, whereas in the beginning, you're really focusing on the mechanics. Like, like, how, like, how do you actually physically do the things? Where are you putting your energy marketing into? And I think that's just true for, like, every aspect of life. Not just marketing, that. Like, in the beginning of when you're trying something new or doing something new or have a new part of, even, like, a new relationship, you're really just dealing with, like, the mechanics of it, right? Like, yeah, like, do we fit? Do we have the same values? Do we have the same morals? Like, all that stuff? And then once you're like, okay, like, we got this down. We got this down. Now you're working on, like, the art. Like, like, how do you make me feel? Like, you know what I'm saying? And I was like, that's such a good, like, analogy for life in general. And I think it's helpful because for high achievers, it's hard to be in the mechanics phase because you don't want to be in that phase. You're like, this is. I just want to be in making it pretty. The finessing phase. But recognizing that's such a crucial part of success in anything you do is just leaning into that mechanics and understanding how it all works and functions.

00:09:06 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I totally agree, especially your points about relationships. I remember one point that was like, the second or third date I was on with Sean. He was like, you're just collecting your data points now. Need some more data points on that. And I'm like, yes, yes, I do not done collecting my data points to make an informed decision yet. Like, you're just working on those mechanic things. Yeah, you know, but I think I definitely that with business, I think it never ends, though, like, because again, like, as things are, like, constantly, like, changing and evolving and you're growing or whatnot, there's always, like, the reluctance to go back to the mechanics phase and just to focus on that art space. Do you know what I'm saying? But I think it's like a constant.

00:09:40 - Dana Kadwell
Cycle, which is a mistake.

00:09:42 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:09:42 - Dana Kadwell
It's not saying when you're a new business owner, it's just saying when you are in a new place. So, like, if you look at it from a perspective, like, even where we are, like, we're in a new place. So we do need to talk about some mechanics. Like, we're in a different, like, we're trying different things. There has been change. I mean, even as logical as, like, the bar and, like, the way we structured our team is very, very, very different. Like, it is. So it is going back to those mechanics. So the mechanics have been what are our job descriptions? What are our metrics? How do we know we're successful? Like, what are the expectations? Like, which is things that was annoying to think about. Like, why are we doing this? Like, we've already done this. It's already a conversation we've had, but it's because it's new. Yeah, we have to go to that phase. You can't skip over it for sure. So I thought that was, like, a super interesting way to, like, apply that to lots of parts of business, not just marketing.

00:10:28 - Courtney Hopper
Totally agree.

00:10:28 - Dana Kadwell
But great marketing advice in general.

00:10:30 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. What was your favorite business takeaway?

00:10:34 - Dana Kadwell
I liked it when you talked about what she said about the Instagram grid and that people, like, she knows. It's like, a big mistake is when. And all you can see on it is like, buy my shit, buy my shit, buy my shit, as opposed to focusing on the no, like, trust part of marketing, which you. Everyone knows, so clearly no, like, trust. And. Yeah, and it really goes back to even the conversations we've been having about, like, you know, one of the biggest mistakes we see from venues is their goal is to sell the person on the venue, on the tour. Like, they want to take that hour, and they want to convince this person that this is the place for them.

00:11:10 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:11:10 - Dana Kadwell
Where good marketing and good sales is. By the time they get to the tour, they're already 80% sold.

00:11:16 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:11:16 - Dana Kadwell
And you're just cinching, like, clinching the deal. Right, right. And that's for most people. Some people, you're going to have those ones that, like, you know, whatever. For the majority of the time, you really want to make sure that when they get there, they're already pretty much sold on the space and they're just confirming it in their minds. They want to put their eyes on it. They want to make sure they like the person. It's the feel good stuff. And so it's this marketing. You have to make them know who you are. Like, who you are, trust who you are before they even get there. That's a really great reminder.

00:11:49 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I definitely think so. I think we do kind of get stuck sometimes in the selling aspect of it and not realizing that the selling is being hurt because we haven't built the trust with them. Yeah.

00:12:00 - Dana Kadwell
And I don't. Humanity, and I don't think it's true in our marketing. I think our marketing very much has a good no, like, no, like, trust. Our sales funnel is not that way. Right. And so, like, it's, like, which is part of marketing.

00:12:12 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:12:12 - Dana Kadwell
Right. So our, like, our marketing is going here, but then, like, there's a gap kind of here, and we're going. Then we're like, like, buy my shit. Buy my shit. And you're like, wait a minute. Like, I don't trust any of this. You know? And a lot of it is just too, like, recognizing, like, people change, clients change, how they listen. Like, people don't listen to you. And so. And, like. And, like, one of the things today I was talking to our person about was, like, when they're in this space, like, you just want them to feel a certain type of way, and it's your job to figure out how they want to feel in that space. But imagine this. Like, you're excited to be here. You're excited to be with your partner or whatever, and you walk in this beautiful space, and you're imagining tables, and they're like, so we have this exclusive catering list, and it's going to cost 10% of this. And da da da da. We have to have this plan. Like, you've killed the vibe.

00:13:03 - Courtney Hopper
Yes.

00:13:04 - Dana Kadwell
I'm not saying.

00:13:04 - Courtney Hopper
Are we killing the vibe?

00:13:06 - Dana Kadwell
And I'm not saying that, like, you shouldn't say these things. We should say these things. But that's not the time. That's not the time they need to fall in love with. They need to be on cloud nights. Then when you sit down and you're talking about these things, you're like, well, I don't care because I love it. I can only picture myself here, you know? Like, it's just very small things like that. That it's the same amount of information. You're saying it in the same way, but they can hear you in one way and another way. All they can hear is, like, there's a lot of rules here.

00:13:35 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:13:35 - Dana Kadwell
Like, they're not gonna let me do what I want to do.

00:13:37 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:13:37 - Dana Kadwell
You know, it's just all perception.

00:13:39 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, for sure.

00:13:39 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, yes. So, like, I feel like that. That know, like, trust is crucial throughout the entire process, and it's really. Because then the end is how you can actually sell it.

00:13:51 - Courtney Hopper
I'm curious if Instagram, especially when you're talking about. Not, like, you can. No, like, trust on Instagram. Like, on a small purchase.

00:13:59 - Dana Kadwell
Sure thing.

00:13:59 - Courtney Hopper
Sure. It happens to me all the time. I have been Instagram influenced. There are products to corroborate this story.

00:14:05 - Dana Kadwell
How's your spoiled child going?

00:14:08 - Courtney Hopper
Well, I haven't taken it in the last week, so not well, but I think. Well, I don't know. I was Instagram influenced by a friend who I actually know by that, by the way, anyway, so. But I think when you're talking about really large purchases and, like, major decisions, like a venue, I think you can only get to, like, you can't really get to trust. Like, I think then that personal trust happens when you hop off the Instagram and you start having interactions with the people.

00:14:33 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I do. But I think trust does start with social proof. I think that when you see the reviews, when you have, you have free advertising of someone who said, oh, my God, I had the most amazing day. Like, I love the venue staff. Like, those are little tiny pieces of trust. And that's. And it's hard to do that because I don't think that. I don't think that the client, like, this season of clients, like, in general, 2024 people, clients or whatever, they don't recognize the hospitality as readily. Like, they're not one to jump on and say, oh, my gosh, like, my venue was amazing because the people were amazing. They're gonna say, oh, my God, it was amazing. The drinks were great and everyone was friendly, but it was beautiful. You know what I mean? It's almost become expected. And they notice it when it's not right, but they don't notice it when it is right.

00:15:27 - Courtney Hopper
I do think that, too. But I was also thinking, too, getting back to your point of the rules and the trust, you can even put those things up front. Like, for example, on our particular process, we do have an exclusive catering list. And there's a reason why we have an exclusive catering list, because we had a catering truck that blew up in our front of our venue and jeopardized every wedding that was going to happen after that. But it's like, the way that you couch that information is not. You have to work from our catering list. It is. We have curated this list of the best overall a caterers for you. And we have vetted them. We know they're going to always deliver. They're going to do amazing job. And the reason is because we've been to the dark side and we don't want that for your wedding. Do you know what I'm saying? But you can start that trust process. And even with rules developing that kind of understanding and they know it before even walking in.

00:16:19 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's definitely like an advantage, I think. Why? Like, we were so good at sales in the venue because we approached it like a planner. And so we had this very strong knowledge of how things should go. And there was a lot of people felt very comfortable with that because there's.

00:16:37 - Courtney Hopper
A lot of trust.

00:16:37 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, a ton of trust. Because you were seen as the absolute expert and, you know, and so now I feel like even in other venue spaces, people are like, oh, I'm the expert of this venue. Like, yeah, you are the experts venue, but are you an expert in weddings and events?

00:16:53 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:16:53 - Dana Kadwell
That's two different things for sure, you know?

00:16:55 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:16:56 - Dana Kadwell
So, yeah. What was your and business?

00:16:59 - Courtney Hopper
My business takeaway was maintaining. How do you maintain that new girl energy? Because, again, getting back to where we're at in the messy middle, why we're having this podcast of, I don't know, maybe this is therapy and not podcasting anymore for the business is. We had this conversation concerning sales and where we're at in our space, and we talked about how we phoned it in in the 21, 22. We didn't really have to. There was not enough spaces for the number of clients we had. Right now, we have the opposite issue. And you hear, oh, but there's these new venues opening up. Right? And I'm like, that doesn't change. There's always going to be something new and something shiny. I said, and the reason that they're booking is because they have that new girl energy. It is do or die. I remember when I opened the bradford, I was going to give you a child if you booked there. There was nothing I wasn't going to do to make you book that space if you were touring it. Right. Like, I wanted it because I had to. Because if I didn't, I couldn't pay my bills.

00:17:57 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:17:57 - Courtney Hopper
And there was something about, like, that hustle and, like, that new girl energy. I think that really?

00:18:02 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I totally agree. And it's. I don't know if I'd use the word hustle is the right word.

00:18:06 - Courtney Hopper
It was totally hustle.

00:18:07 - Dana Kadwell
I think it's actually. Inclusivity is the word.

00:18:10 - Courtney Hopper
What?

00:18:10 - Dana Kadwell
Yes. Like, no, no. Listen, hear me out. I feel like we are so busy in 2021 and 2022 that every client that was not the ideal fit became a blacklist type client. Like, it was like, okay, I did not like how this went. So I don't want a client that doesn't have more than $30,000. Right. I didn't like how this went. I don't want a client that has this kind of vendor, like, that is doing a food truck vendor.

00:18:37 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:18:37 - Dana Kadwell
You know what I mean? Like, there's this whole list of things that are like, no, no, no. Like, if they say this, it's red flag. Red flag.

00:18:44 - Courtney Hopper
Red flag.

00:18:45 - Dana Kadwell
And a new venue. Those are not red flags. They're like, sure, we'll make it work. We'll accommodate. There might be rules and boundaries in place. And so now it's almost a step too far where it's like, okay, you have, like, a 200 person wedding and you want to do the event for $35,000. It's an immediate no. I've seen these emails, like, oh, we're just not a great fit for you. And I'm like, wait a minute. We are a fantastic fit on a Wednesday morning from ten to one. I would love to have you at our venue, and I'd love to have a champagne toast, and we can have a dessert, little luncheon thing. And it's amazing and everything you want. And in fact, we throw in a. You can stay the night if you'd like to. Yeah, I'll take your money for that. Yeah, I don't care. Right? Like, it's. It's this. It's an, it's an. It's an exclusivity that happens when you get so busy and you get so full that it's almost like you're too big for your britches. And you're like, wait a minute. Like, let's bring it back down and let's remember, like, that we believe, because what we believe and part of our mission and service statement is that everyone deserves to be celebrated here.

00:19:50 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:19:50 - Dana Kadwell
And that includes expense, like, how much money you have. Right.

00:19:55 - Courtney Hopper
Well, also, I think people, like, just, like, from the planner perspective, they throw out a number. They have actually no idea how much things.

00:20:02 - Dana Kadwell
Right. So then you're shutting the door on something that's like, they're just not educated.

00:20:06 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:20:06 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but I mean, it's very much. It's so. It's easier. It's like, yeah, you know what? A Saturday night is not going to be the best fit for you, but I have all these really great options for you. If this is really the place that you love and you want, like, and then from a client perspective, like, you have someone that says no. Like, what does that even do to your you? And like, oh, like, they're so snobby. And then they tell the next person. And they tell the next person. Do you know what I mean?

00:20:28 - Courtney Hopper
That's what we're doing.

00:20:29 - Dana Kadwell
No, but I'm saying, and I'm not saying it's done in a mean way or anything, and it's not. And it is because we did not have to fight for the business. And so we could say no. We could say, you know what? I really don't want to deal with the hassle of this, because I have ten people that want your date. Right. And then when it's not like that, but you're walking into it, the same thing, and you're like, wait, we don't have anybody that wants that date. Let's figure it out. And again, it doesn't come from any place from malice or bad intentions. It's just a learned behavior that you have to break in a lot of ways and say, okay, let's come back to it. You know?

00:21:06 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:21:08 - Dana Kadwell
That's what neutral energy is. It's inclusivity.

00:21:10 - Courtney Hopper
Okay. So we need to be inclusive.

00:21:12 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, to a degree. Yeah. So, like, all the things.

00:21:15 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, yeah. Open. Open to being open.

00:21:18 - Dana Kadwell
Open to being open. Yeah.

00:21:21 - Courtney Hopper
All right.

00:21:21 - Dana Kadwell
What was your personal?

00:21:24 - Courtney Hopper
My personal was that reinvention is inevitable.

00:21:27 - Dana Kadwell
I feel like, as we just were talking about that.

00:21:28 - Courtney Hopper
Yes.

00:21:29 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, we just talked about that.

00:21:30 - Courtney Hopper
But also, I think, you know, personally, because I felt like it was kind of hard to extract a personal. It's very business focus, which I loved, but I feel like, you know, personally, that's definitely been true. Like, something that I've learned and annoying. And annoying.

00:21:45 - Dana Kadwell
It's been annoying. They had to reinvent ourselves so much.

00:21:47 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, oh, personally, yeah.

00:21:49 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:21:49 - Courtney Hopper
But it's inevitable. Like, you're not the same person you are when you were 20 or not same person you are when you were 30. You're not the same person you are when you're 40. Like, you've learned more things. You'd make different decisions. You have more experiences. So, like.

00:22:00 - Dana Kadwell
But the reinvention comes at a very, like, dark time.

00:22:05 - Courtney Hopper
Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

00:22:06 - Dana Kadwell
Which is annoying to go through.

00:22:08 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, you know, like, going through a divorce, that was annoying. Like, it was very inconvenient and annoying. But also, I like the person that I am on the other side of that. Sure. And I can also look back and appreciate the person that walked through that, you know? So I think. I think it's all in your perspective. I just think it's inevitable.

00:22:26 - Dana Kadwell
That's very similar. It's like you're always on shifting sand, essentially.

00:22:31 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. I think the second you get comfortable, and this is exactly. And not to make it not personal about business, the second you get comfortable, it's like, uh uh, don't do it. That's how I feel. I feel like it's always shifting sand. Either either on or you're off.

00:22:44 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I think. And I do feel that way about. I feel that way about parenting. Like, sure.

00:22:49 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:22:49 - Dana Kadwell
I feel like once you have it down, then they change and you're, like, in the world. Um, I feel that way, definitely about business. I don't think I. But I don't think I've been comfortable in ten years, so it's fine. I don't think I've ever felt like, oh, this is great. We are, like, knocking it out of the park. I always have some low level amount of stress related to our business because I actually very much believe in the fact that we're on shifting sand all the time in business. I've always said we can't be irrelevant. We can't be stagnant. We got to keep changing. You gotta, like, we, like, I'm just getting older and everyone's getting younger. Like, my gap between our clients, me, are just getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

00:23:24 - Courtney Hopper
That's true.

00:23:25 - Dana Kadwell
And I'm out of touch with all the things, you know, so that's like, constantly trying to educate and, like, understand and, like, learn how to reach these people that I don't understand, you know, so that way. But I don't feel that way necessarily about other things, though. Like, I don't feel like shifting sand. Like, necessarily, like, I don't know. With Sam, I don't feel that way.

00:23:47 - Courtney Hopper
I feel like, well, that must be nice.

00:23:48 - Dana Kadwell
I mean.

00:23:49 - Courtney Hopper
Okay, I know.

00:23:51 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, I'm just saying, like, I don't think, like, I mean, we change, but it's not like it feels unsafe and it feels like, oh, we're like, I have to reinvent who we are as a couple. I think it will when, like, we don't have kids in the house. I think that'll be a huge reinvention.

00:24:04 - Courtney Hopper
I think so.

00:24:04 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, yeah, yeah. Because we're like, well, him specifically is very, like, kid focused, like, all in, 100%. Like, he's like such an intentional parent. Like, you know, so I think when they're gone, like, I don't know what he's gonna do with himself.

00:24:22 - Courtney Hopper
Probably gonna take up a lot of hobbies and annoy you.

00:24:24 - Dana Kadwell
He probably.

00:24:25 - Courtney Hopper
Cuz he's like a pack rat.

00:24:26 - Dana Kadwell
No, he did say he just wants to travel with me.

00:24:28 - Courtney Hopper
Okay, well, there you go.

00:24:29 - Dana Kadwell
Hop on a plane and come with me.

00:24:30 - Courtney Hopper
I love that for you. I think foundationally, you guys have a lot of things, like, going, though, so I think that probably is stable. But I think there are, I mean, even like, some of my best friends who've been married for a long time, there are cracks that come and things do shift and you have to change.

00:24:43 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:24:44 - Courtney Hopper
What you want changes and your outlook changes. I mean, life changes you.

00:24:47 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but I guess I don't feel like the shifting sand. I don't feel like it's constant. I feel like there's, like, you can look at moments like, obviously got married. Great, great, great. Had kids. That was a moment of, like, sheer, you know, destruction. And then, like, you know, so you could see. You could see, like, things, but it didn't feel like this constant, like, where business, to me, as a shifting sand feels constant. Like, it feels like you're on that, like, balance ball. Have you ever, like, physical therapy?

00:25:15 - Courtney Hopper
Yes, I have been.

00:25:16 - Dana Kadwell
And, like, you're on that balance ball, and you're constantly just trying to do this, like, micro adjust all the time. Where I feel like in, you know, my relationship, it's been very this, and then sometimes it's just like this, and you're like, oh, okay, well, let me, like, try to balance that back out and then we'll be solid again, you know? But it's not constant.

00:25:32 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:25:32 - Dana Kadwell
You know what I'm saying?

00:25:33 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I do know what you mean.

00:25:34 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I agree with that.

00:25:35 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, yeah. I mean, I think business is constant. It's like a constant dance. It is, yeah.

00:25:42 - Dana Kadwell
And I think that's, like, what is what they don't tell you when you own a business.

00:25:48 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. I never consulted a they before we owned a business, so I. I don't know what I was supposed to know or not now.

00:25:54 - Dana Kadwell
Well, I don't think I consulted anybody, but I'm saying, like, you look at other people, like, you look at, like, examples in the world, and you're just like, you don't seem stressed out about this.

00:26:05 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:26:06 - Dana Kadwell
You know, and maybe it's a difference between in your business entrepreneur and out of your business entrepreneur. Like, are you a venture capitalist entrepreneur, or are you, like, in your business entrepreneur?

00:26:17 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I think our industry is so transient, like, the trends and the level of service expected. And, like, your clients are constantly changing. Who we were servicing ten years ago aren't even thinking about getting married now. Our business in general does require a lot of forethought and shifts and changes. You're constantly reaching out to a new demographic. That demographic doesn't grow with you. You know, you're not like, you're not like your favorite shampoo brand that you're gonna, like, use for ten years. You know what I mean? Like, it's constantly figuring out, right, what this next person, next group of people want.

00:26:56 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:26:56 - Courtney Hopper
And staying relevant.

00:26:58 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:26:59 - Courtney Hopper
But, I mean, I love it. I do love that. The business of it. I do not like the stress of it sometimes, and the marketing does get lost on me. I feel like that is not a strong point for me.

00:27:10 - Dana Kadwell
Where's, like, the fuck up in all this?

00:27:14 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, I feel like we've talked about the fuck up, like, indirectly is, like, we've gotten lazy with it. Like, I like, wow. It's just, like, in the end of COVID I'm like, why didn't I work out more? Like, I had all this time, and I could have this killer kick ass body, and I've just wasted these nine months making cocktails and sewing things. But, you know.

00:27:36 - Dana Kadwell
I had a lot of embroidery.

00:27:37 - Courtney Hopper
Dayna did embroidery. It's a whole thing. I also homeschool my children, but anyway, it just felt like I had this time. I look back and I look back now, and I'm like, God, why didn't we really hone in on our message?

00:27:49 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but actually, I would like to push back on that a little bit, because I remember being in 2021, and I remember saying, everyone is just going to ride, and we need to figure out how to stay relevant. And we did things.

00:28:03 - Courtney Hopper
We do do things.

00:28:04 - Dana Kadwell
We did the luxury collection up, our hospitality. We did a lot of things. I think the area that we didn't focus on was marketing, but we. We did hone in on our message. We did hone in on who our client was. I do think we spent the time and Covid to figure that out. I don't know if we, like, we. We rely on the pretty too much with our marketing.

00:28:26 - Courtney Hopper
Our client has shifted. Like, our client has. Our expectation of client has shifted. And, like, we are getting people in the door who, in a lot of ways, can't afford our venue. They can't afford the space. Like, the clientele that we need is definitely not the one that we're reaching. Do you know what I'm saying? And I'm not saying we certainly should have a marketing campaign around what a weekday wedding looks like or maybe even a Sunday. And I know we do that, but that Friday, Saturday, the bread and butter clients of ours, we've had NFL players and country stars and big people in our venue. That's who it's attracting, but it's not who we're marketing to. You know what I mean? So it's, like, we're, like, missing the buck on it a little bit.

00:29:10 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:29:10 - Courtney Hopper
So. But I. And part of it's just, like, cost of it. Like, the cost of running a venue has escalated. It's skyrocketed.

00:29:16 - Dana Kadwell
It has. But at the same time, like, I've never believed in, like, you know, I like knowing your ideal client. Yes. But I feel like it's different. Like being a planner, you have an ideal client straight up and down. Like, you have an ideal event management client. You have an ideal full plan client. Like, that's easy. I can put that in a box.

00:29:32 - Courtney Hopper
Fine.

00:29:33 - Dana Kadwell
And florists, yes, you have an aesthetic, 100%. But venues are tricky because again, you have that ideal Friday Saturday client, which is a different ideal Sunday client, which is a different Monday through Thursday client. And so then how does your marketing hit all four of those people?

00:29:48 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I think, I wish if I were to go back to those times, spent more time on educating our clients on it. I would like to be more of a source, our venue, not us personally, be more of a source of just understanding what entails to put on a wedding and like educating them so they know what they're signing up for, if that makes sense. Yeah, but anyway, that's what I think. I think that would be that way. I'm not even saying we're doing a bad job marketing. I think our marketing director does a great job. It's beautiful. The stuff that's out is gorgeous. Like all of those things. But I think that we relied on the pretty, cause our venue is pretty and relied on on socials a little bit too much and I think not enough on like, you know, Google Analytics and SEO and all that.

00:30:31 - Dana Kadwell
But that comes down to, I mean, we've said this for like a month now. It's like a leadership problem. Like, oh, I don't blame anybody. Yeah, totally. Leadership problem. Yeah, like not like recognizing that we needed to shift and move and change. Like that's, that's, and I think that's where, like, there's this like side note tangent talking about fuck ups, whatever. And I was talking to Sam last night about it and I was like, it's so hard because you build this team and you're like, hey, I trust you to do these things. But like, what is hard to recognize as a leader is you say, okay, I'm going to curate this process. I'm going to let you have it and they're going to do it and they're going to do it. But then you've empowered them so much that they're also recognizing, well, this maybe isn't fitting, but you aren't paying attention enough to recognize it isn't fitting. And so then they're going rogue to fix the problem that really you should be the one leading through the problem. And that's where the whole cycle broke. It wasn't, you know, it was just this I trust so much that I stopped paying attention to how to. How to pivot and change and evolve. And so then it became so broken, like, in the process that then you're like, why aren't we doing anything we've talked about before? You know what I mean? Yeah.

00:31:45 - Courtney Hopper
And you don't know until it's like hitting your bottom line. And you're like, okay, we're not hitting this metric, right.

00:31:49 - Dana Kadwell
Right. So it's definitely, like, it's a hard. It's a hard leadership lesson to learn, I feel like.

00:31:54 - Courtney Hopper
I agree.

00:31:56 - Dana Kadwell
It's been a hard, hard two months of that.

00:31:59 - Courtney Hopper
It has been. But very humbling. Yeah, I do think. I think that's one thing is business. No matter. I think where you're at is humbling. It's a humbling experience, for sure. Yeah. To learn more about our hustles, visit us on the grammar hebradfordnc, anthem House, and Hustleandgather. And if you're interested in learning more about our speaking training venue consulting, head to our website@hustleandgather.com, and if you love.

00:32:33 - Dana Kadwell
Us and you love this show, we'd be more than honored if you left a rating and a review.

00:32:36 - Courtney Hopper
This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I'm Courtney.

00:32:39 - Dana Kadwell
And I'm Dana.

00:32:40 - Courtney Hopper
And we'll talk with you next time on hustle and gather