Hustle + Gather Dean Ogan Episode
[00:00:00] Courtney: Well, we are excited to have you here today.
[00:00:01] Dean Ogan: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:02] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:00:03] Dana: Yeah.
[00:00:04] Courtney: So odd interviewing somebody that we know fairly well, like you've had so many conversations. I feel like we could really talk about so many things, but today we're talking about teams.
[00:00:14] Dana: We are talking about teams.
[00:00:15] Courtney: Right? Cause we do think that, you have an amazing ability to grow and retain a team in what is a very like, transient atmosphere, honestly. When you think about hospitality and special events and whatnot, people tend to not either be, tend to be lifers or just not stick around for very long, you know? So obviously you're one of the lifers. But before we kind of get started into all that, can you give us a little bit of your background and how you first got into that?
[00:00:40] Dean Ogan: Oh sure.
[00:00:40] Courtney: Hospitality, etcetera.
[00:00:41] Dean Ogan: Well, I've been in the hospitality industry since I was 14.
[00:00:45] I grew up on the Jersey Shore. I didn't realize how good I had it. I, I had a less than a mile bike ride to, Sea Bright New Jersey, which was, a big gathering place for all the Benny's, the people from Brooklyn, Elizabeth, [00:01:00] Newark, and New York. They would come down on the weekends. So great, great summer jobs. Memorial Day through Labor Day. And that's how I kind of dove into hospitality.
[00:01:09] It was, my parents said, get outta the house and go get a job.
[00:01:12] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:01:13] Dean Ogan: I, I fell in love with the industry. Went to college very briefly in, at the University of Tennessee. I immediately got a job when I went to school, so I was working 50 to 60 hours a week, when I was supposed to be in school. And I just always loved to work.
[00:01:26] And, that was the path I took. I worked with a, an old concept called Daryl's.
[00:01:31] you may remember Daryl's, uh.
[00:01:34] Courtney: on Hillsborough Street
[00:01:34] Dean Ogan: That’s right
[00:01:35] Courtney: It was on Hillsborough and Clark.
[00:01:37] Dean Ogan: Yep. I think David's Dumplings is there now.
[00:01:40] Courtney: it is. Yeah.
[00:01:41] Dean Ogan: But they, they had several, they had 30 restaurants. They, they
[00:01:43] Dana: they're like a chain?
[00:01:44] Dean Ogan: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:45] They, they came from the Angus Barn, 42nd Street family.
[00:01:51] Courtney: I didn't know that.
[00:01:51] Dean Ogan: Yep. The Winston's family. Yeah, they, Darryl Davis was, was Thad Eure's partner
[00:01:56] Dana: Okay.
[00:01:57] Courtney: Okay.
[00:01:57] Dean Ogan: With Charles Winston.
[00:01:58] So the three of those guys kind of [00:02:00] formed the whole thing. Anyway, I worked for them for 10 years, eventually opened my own restaurant. We owned 12 restaurants over about 15 years. But after 10 years, generally during the recession, we started doing some catering.
[00:02:14] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:14] Dean Ogan: Because the restaurants were flailing because of the, the recession.
[00:02:19] And we're like, wow, this, this catering thing's kind of cool.
[00:02:22] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:23] Dean Ogan: And we started to figure it out a little bit and, uh.
[00:02:26] Courtney: So that really only started happening in like 2008, 2009.
[00:02:29] Dean Ogan: We, we dabbled. Yeah. You know, it was a side hustle thing.
[00:02:32] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:02:32] Dean Ogan: It was like, ugh, somebody wants us to bring food to their house.
[00:02:35] Dean Ogan: We had, no, we had no idea to do it. we were literally the throw it in the back of the trunk, no proper equipment, just here's your pan of caterer. It was just a side thing, but.
[00:02:46] Courtney: Because I feel like I vaguely remember during that time it was you own guys own Twisted Fork.
[00:03:47] Dean Ogan: We did
[00:02:51] Courtney: Yeah. And I remember someone saying that, oh, Twisted Fork caters, because we were right. We were planners at that time, and. [00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Dana: We did a tasting there.
[00:03:01] Courtney: We did, I Twisted Fork, but it wasn't, I don't know if it was like Rocky Top Catering or if it was just Twisted Forked Catering.
[00:03:07] Dean Ogan: Yep. It, it was, it was all this giant integrated
[00:03:10] Courtney: Uh-huh
[00:03:11] Dean Ogan: colossal mess. You know, we, we, we were just kind of doing it to try to help us survive and transition through that. Our high end restaurants got killed. I mean, we were off 40%. at some of our restaurants, you know, in less than a year.
[00:03:26] And I had a tremendous amount of debt at that point. I, I was a, a, serial restaurant opener, you know, I was like, oh, I got another idea.
[00:03:35] Let's just open a restaurant, not worry about the money.
[00:03:37] Dana: Right.
[00:03:38] Dean Ogan: So that all came to a head, we got into the catering. And you know, I guess from 2013 through 2017, I had seven restaurants at that point, and I sold all but one of them. off and decided to completely commit to the, the catering world.
[00:03:54] Dana: Yeah. What one did you keep?
[00:03:56] Dean Ogan: the Daily Planet Cafe, which is...
[00:03:58] Dana: oh, yeah.
[00:03:58] Dean Ogan: Which, You know, we, we still own and [00:04:00] operate at the museum in natural Sciences.
[00:04:01] Dana: Okay.
[00:04:02] Dean Ogan: and for you know, two reasons. One, it's part of our exclusive contract with that museum,
[00:04:08] And two, it closes at five o'clock. There's no bars, there's no late nights, there's no drunk people.
[00:04:14] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:04:14] Dana: It’s easy,
[00:04:15] Dean Ogan: it's, it's super easy.
[00:04:16] Courtney: Just a bunch of sandwiches and chips
[00:04:18] Dana: I was very sad when Dean's closed. I have to admit that you guys had the best brunch, like Mother's Day, Father's Day brunch we went every year. I was very sad when it closed. It was good food.
[00:04:29] Dean Ogan: See, I loved it
[00:04:30] Dean Ogan: But I had to go every year as well. And work from seven in the morning until 10 at night.
[00:04:35] Dana: Probably wasn't, fun but.
[00:04:37] Dean Ogan: No.
[00:04:38] Courtney: You were not a fan.
[00:04:39] Dean Ogan: I, I, I I was, it it's like a, it's like a bad addiction restaurants.
[00:04:43] I, every once in a while I'll, I'll tell my wife, I, I kind of have this idea, and
[00:04:48] Courtney: she's like, no.
[00:04:49] Dean Ogan: She's like, well you know, you got two choices. And I'm like, all right, all Right. I kind of like you.
[00:04:54] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:04:55] Dean Ogan: And I like my kids and my house, so, we'll, we'll stick with it.
[00:04:59] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:04:59] Dana: That's a [00:05:00] good woman there.
[00:05:00] Dean Ogan: Yes, she's smart. Thank God.
[00:05:03] Courtney: You gotta parlay that one. It's the best idea. Can't just be kind of have an idea?
[00:05:07] Dean Ogan: No. Oh, it doesn't
[00:05:08] Courtney: Yeah, it doesn't matter.
[00:05:09] Dana: She’s like I’m not going down that road again.
[00:05:11] Restaurant world is hard.
[00:05:12] Courtney: That is hard.
[00:05:13] Dana: The margins are so small, like, and it's just the volume necessary. And I feel like it's so easy to fail at it. Really
[00:05:20] Courtney: like it's easy to, like guess wrong.
[00:05:22] Dana: Yeah. It is guessing.
[00:05:24] Dean Ogan: It is.
[00:05:25] And, you know, the, the thing about restaurants is they, you, you're either trendy or you become an institution.
[00:05:34] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:05:34] Dean Ogan: But there's no in between. And, and I kind of, I, you know, I went with a lot of trendy stuff.
[00:05:39] you know, the, the, the deans was seafood, that was pretty straightforward, but even with that, you know, it started to lose a little bit of luster. It was, it was in a decent location, not a great location.
[00:05:51] Dana: Right,
[00:05:52] Dean Ogan: So, you know, you end up just fighting to get traffic
[00:05:57] Dean Ogan: And it, it's, it, it, it, it can wear you out. [00:06:00] Yeah, it really can.
[00:06:01] Dana: For sure. So, you decided to jump into the catering full-time, so sold everything. And then how is that transition? Like, obviously it's a different kind of team.
[00:06:11] You're not, you still have chefs and, but you don't have servers necessarily, but those are, become more part-time, not like a full-time restaurant staff. So how did you transition that?
[00:06:20] Dean Ogan: So, so poorly in the beginning? for sure, because I treated it the business like a restaurant, and not like an events business.
[00:06:29] Meaning, you know, when you, when you open a restaurant, you spend all this money and all this time up front, and then you open your doors, you have your grand opening and boom.
[00:06:37] Dean Ogan: You've, you've got revenue and generally your first year, if you do it right, you do very, you can do very well.
[00:06:44] Dana: Right.
[00:06:44] Dean Ogan: And then it's about, you know, maintaining that, that level. On the catering side of things, the thing I learned was you've gotta spend the money upfront.
[00:06:54] Dean Ogan: On the most important resource you have, which is your people. So, I had to, you know, I hired, [00:07:00] you know, Kevin D Heimer.
[00:07:01] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:02] Dean Ogan: Which we all love, you know, he
[00:07:03] Dean Ogan: was one of my first salespeople and Kathy White was one of my first salespeople, which who we all love.
[00:07:08] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:09] Dean Ogan: And I had all these salespeople, but there were no sales.
[00:07:13] And then they're telling me you need hot boxes and you need a chef and we've gotta work on this marketing plan.
[00:07:20] Dean Ogan: And you're spending all this money and you're starting to book events, mostly weddings.
[00:07:23] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:07:24] Dean Ogan: And they're six months, nine months, 12 months out. And you're like, well, I just spent all this money.
[00:07:29] Dean Ogan: But there's no money coming in to speak of, other than,
[00:07:32] Dana: Right.
[00:07:33] Dean Ogan: You know, probably at that time, two small deposits.
[00:07:35] Cause we didn't know what we were doing.
[00:07:36] Dana: Sure.
[00:07:37] Dean Ogan: So, it, it really, it, it came down to figuring out, okay.
[00:07:41] I've gotta think about from a, from a personnel standpoint, what I have today is gonna be reflective of what my business will look like a year and two years down the road.
[00:07:51] Dean Ogan: So, you know, like if you fast forward to now, we just had a phenomenal year. If I want to grow next year, I know I need to hire [00:08:00] two more sales people
[00:08:01] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:01] Dean Ogan: and I need to hire, another operations manager. And I probably need a couple more salaried chefs.
[00:08:06] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:07] Dean Ogan: And, and that's not just from the sales standpoint, but that's to maintain, you know, a, a somewhat respectable work-life balance and all the things culturally they're, that are really important.
[00:08:18] Dana: Yeah. So you mentioned Kevin, who's been with you from the very beginning. So how long has he worked for you, I guess at this point?
[00:08:23] Dean Ogan: 18 years.
[00:08:23] Dana: 18 years.
[00:08:24] Yeah. And I feel like that seems to be the case for a lot of your employees.
[00:08:30] So what do you feel like is the the secret sauce? Like how do you stay invested in your employees?
[00:08:39] Dean Ogan: Well, I I think it to, to back that up a little, a lot of my people joke with me about 17 chances,
[00:08:45] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:46] Dean Ogan: And they, the, the, somebody will mess up and they'll come up and go, what chance was that? I'll go, I'll go. It was chance 12.
[00:08:51] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:08:52] Dean Ogan: And I, I have built my business on a family owned premise.
[00:08:59] [00:09:00] I'm, I come from a, a corporate background and I'm very structured, oriented, very systems oriented. But with people, I think you have to treat 'em like family.
[00:09:09] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:09] Dean Ogan: You know, if, if my, my son makes a mistake, you know, it's gonna be a teachable moment.
[00:09:15] If my dog, who I love makes a mistake it's a teachable moment. and that's the way I've approached it with everybody within my business.
[00:09:23] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:23] Dean Ogan: is, you know, you, you can't just be trigger happy. Right? and, and that, and I did that in the past,
[00:09:29] Dean Ogan: you know, in the restaurants. I mean, heck, 20 years ago, if you showed up 15 minutes late, three times, I, I probably would've let you go.
[00:09:36] Dana: Right?
[00:09:36] Dean Ogan: And I look back on that approach, I'm like,
[00:09:38] Dean Ogan: god, you were so stupid. Because, you know, you let a lot of people go based on a, on a, on a system and, and a just a very black and white.
[00:09:46] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:47] Dean Ogan: you know, criteria.
[00:09:49] Dean Ogan: When people aren't black and white, you know, it's, it's a, it's, it's this giant world of gray that you've gotta, you gotta work with within.
[00:09:57] Dana: mm-hmm.
[00:09:57] Dean Ogan: so that's, that's been the nu, the [00:10:00] number one principle. And then, you know. The other thing is, I have another theory, which is that you teach groups, but you have to manage individuals.
[00:10:06] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:06] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:10:07] Dean Ogan: I mean, there's not two people on earth that are the same.
[00:10:10] Dean Ogan: So, you know, my approach with, you know, every one of our people, and every one of our teammates is gonna be completely different from one person to the next.
[00:10:19] Courtney: Sure.
[00:10:20] Dana: Which is hard because you have a huge staff on your staff? I mean, do you have like a cheat sheet of like?
[00:10:26] Dana: It’s all in my head. unfortunately.
[00:10:28] Dean Ogan: No, and we have, we have probably 90 full-time people, and I'm guessing it's probably 180 to 200 part-time side hustle folks.
[00:10:38] Dana: Yeah.
[00:10:39] Courtney: That's a lot of people.
[00:10:40] Dean Ogan: It's a lot.
[00:10:40] Courtney: It's a lot of personalities.
[00:10:42] Dean Ogan: Yeah.
[00:10:42] I mean, even 90, like in one space is a lot of people. Yeah.
[00:10:47] Dana: yeah.
[00:10:48] Courtney: A lot of individuals. Obviously, I mean, you said you have the full-time staff, 90 full-time staff, but you also have part-time staff.
[00:10:55] Courtney: And I feel like this is, like, that's hard. Like we've had a hard time with part-time [00:11:00] staff. Like we have not figured it out. Like how to get that feeling of loyalty from someone who's not dependent on you for like their food in livelihood.
[00:11:09] So like how have you had success with your, with your part-time staff?
[00:11:13] Dean Ogan: I'll tell you, after the spring season, I mean, I and I, and I totally nix any analysis of last fall.
[00:11:20] It was coming outta the pandemic. We were all kind of starting from scratch. Right. All of our part-time people that helped us out a lot, had just disappeared.
[00:11:27] Dana: Right.
[00:11:27] Courtney: Right.
[00:11:27] Dean Ogan: You know, they, I mean, we didn't have work for 'em for almost two years.
[00:11:31] So, I scratched that. So, we, we did, we went on a massive hiring spree. We brought in a bunch of people this past April. And it was not fun. It didn't go well. it was a lot of panic hiring.
[00:11:42] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:11:43] Dean Ogan: And we just made a lot of mistakes. So, as soon as we got out of it, we got into outta June and into July, we had a little break and I sat down, we have a staffing manager.
[00:11:51] And I sat down with our operations manager, but this was mainly, the front of the house server, servers and bartenders.
[00:11:58] Dana: Okay. Right, right, right.
[00:11:59] Dean Ogan: Because our [00:12:00] culinary is, is pretty, most of those people are full-time.
[00:12:02] Dana: Right.
[00:12:02] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:12:03] Dean Ogan: And we just ask ourselves all the questions that like, okay, what are we doing wrong?
[00:12:08] Dean Ogan: Because I look at it myself and go, this is a perfect side hustle job.
[00:12:13] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:12:14] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:14] Dean Ogan: For a million different people. It could be for a, a, teacher that wants to make a couple extra bucks on the weekends or somebody that's paying off student debt.
[00:12:23] Courtney: Mm.
[00:12:24] Dean Ogan: I mean, heck, it's great for a college kid. You know, they, they can work twice a month, make $400.
[00:12:30] Dana: Right?
[00:12:31] Mm-hmm.
[00:12:31] Yeah.
[00:12:31] Dean Ogan: I mean, that's a lot of beer money,
[00:12:33] Dana: Yeah, that is a lot of beer money.
[00:12:34] Courtney: you know,
[00:12:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:12:35] Dean Ogan: if you drink the, the...
[00:12:36] Dana: The Miller Light, right?
[00:12:37] Yeah.
[00:12:37] Dean Ogan: Yeah.
[00:12:38] So, so we did a solid analysis of everything we were doing and, you know, the, the thing that we realized after about a 30-minute conversation, it just, we were not treating our side hustle people the same way that we were our full-time people. Our full-time people. It's the family approach.
[00:12:55] and these side hustle folks, we were basically hiring [00:13:00] them. And then their first shift was like, oh, you know, you're just going out to this really nice venue called the Bradford we're just gonna. We're gonna shove you out there. You just go out there and you're gonna meet, you're gonna go to a venue you've never been to.
[00:13:09] Where you don't know where to park. Where you don't know where to, where to enter.
[00:13:12] Dean Ogan: And you're gonna meet an event manager that you've never worked with before.
[00:13:15] Dana: Right.
[00:13:15] Dean Ogan: And we're gonna kind of throw you to the wolves. And just say, okay, you're busing tonight.
[00:13:20] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:13:21] Dean Ogan: If you've never worked in hospitality, which a lot of these people haven't.
[00:13:24] Dana: What does that mean?
[00:13:25] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:26] Dean Ogan: So, we backed up the whole, you know, basically I call it the lifespan of the employee.
[00:13:30] And I looked at it from start to finish. And we just rebuilt the whole process and decided, okay, they're not gonna start at the venue.
[00:13:38] We're gonna rework our orientation. And for our orientation, we greet, everybody comes into our boardroom and there's hospitality. So we have cake pops, and we have dips and a cheese and charcuterie board, and a big thing of drinks. And we welcome 'em. We tell 'em about the, the company. And then for their first shift, they come back to our commissary [00:14:00] and they meet the event manager on site. And they, and when they meet the person on site, it, you know, they're walking in on a Saturday most times.
[00:14:06] And there's all sorts of events going out and there's ev, everybody's there.
[00:14:10] So they, they get to, you know, myself and Kevin and bunches of our salespeople, and they get, feel, they, they, they're, you're, you're almost getting thrown right into the culture,
[00:14:21] Dana: right?
[00:14:22] right
[00:14:22] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:22] Dean Ogan: right off the bat. And we have experienced so much success just with that, that little tweak bringing them into the fold and making them feel part of the family of just, I'm the hired whatever that’s
[00:14:35] Dean Ogan: gonna bust tables for eight hours and go home.
[00:14:37] Dana: Yeah.

[00:14:38] Courtney: To some, it's almost like not discounting the onboarding process even for those part-time people, so they can really get a grasp of the values and culture and all that so.
[00:14:48] Dana: Well, yeah, you're getting them to buy into the core values and the culture, which is like, you know, we say all the time is number one.
[00:14:54] And it's so funny how you, how you said that you realize you weren't treating, treating 'em like your full-time staff. [00:15:00] Cause that's the truth is we would hire these full-time people and, and we did the. Literally that we would have lunch and breakfast
[00:15:06] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:06] Dana: and we would bring them into the team. And then when we had these part-time people, a lot of times we don't even see them, like, because un until event day, we have a Zoom interview. And then they're filling out their schedule on a spreadsheet and we're sending them an email of confirmation, oh, you're gonna show up here.
[00:15:20] Your planner's gonna be this person. this is what you need to wear, or whatever. And we do struggle like maintaining those people. But you know, it's, it is in your mind. It's like, do you invest in the part-time right?
[00:15:33] Dana: because you are, you're investing in these full-time people
[00:15:35] Dean Ogan: mm-hmm.
[00:15:36] Dana: and at the end of the day, I am assuming you agree that if you invest in those part-time people, it it's worth it. They stay around longer.
[00:15:43] Dean Ogan: Oh, no question. I mean, there, there's no more or less important person, you know, I mean, I, I tell everybody, we're all teammates.
[00:15:51] And I have, I personally have a job, but my job is no more or less important than anybody else on the team. You know, I mean, the dishwasher, [00:16:00] that what they do is incredibly important.
[00:16:02] Dana: Right.
[00:16:02] Dean Ogan: You know, I mean what, but, but that, that server.
[00:16:05] Dana: Right.
[00:16:05] Dean Ogan: And that, and that's the person we just completely, we're discounting that server is approaching tables at a wedding.
[00:16:12] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:12] Dean Ogan: With our logo.
[00:16:15] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:15] Dean Ogan: On their apron.
[00:16:16] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:17] Dean Ogan: And I mean, our service is, that's the proof of the pudding, that's, that's our marketing. I, I mean, I, I'm not putting up billboards to say, hey, let us cater your wedding. I mean, the only way we market is, is we go to a venue. We serve great food and we provide great service.
[00:16:33] End of the day, I mean, nobody's gonna recommend us if that's not what we're doing.
[00:16:36] Dana: Totally. I mean, I think that's, that's hospitality, it's a crux of hospitality. And so many businesses don't understand that. That it is the interactions with guests because, and, and it goes for us as a venue, they don't understand where the venue starts and stops. And so, if they have a bad interaction with a caterer, like we get the bad review.
[00:16:55] It was like, oh, I went to a wedding here and the service was terrible, and I'd just be like, I didn't hire that caterer. [00:17:00] But for us, it's really important we partner with people that understand that. So, they're like, they had that same value, of it. But yeah, I mean, they're gonna, and I think good food, a hundred percent people will remember, people will remember terrible food and they'll remember amazing food.
[00:17:14] But they will always, always, always, always, how they felt and how they were served.
[00:17:19] For sure.
[00:17:19] Dean Ogan: A hundred percent.
[00:17:20] Yep.
[00:17:20] Dean Ogan: Yep.
[00:17:21] We were talking earlier before we got

[00:17:23] Dean Ogan: on about the Angus barn and that. I was just, I haven't been there in so long because I'm, I'm in hospitality.
[00:17:28] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:28] Yeah.
[00:17:29] Dean Ogan: So I'm, I'm working during the holidays. To go there last night and to, I mean, every person you interacted with
[00:17:35] Dana: mm-hmm.
[00:17:36] Dean Ogan: I mean, we even got in the door, the valley parkers were just, you know, the hospitality was just off the charts. You know, I mean, and then everybody that just comes to your table, that's their gig.
[00:17:47] You know. And, and it's their approach last night I was talking to my wife about this is very similar to what I try to do. It's it's kind of the the hurry up and wait,
[00:17:55] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:56] Dean Ogan: scenario.
[00:17:56] It's like you never see anybody scrambling at the Angus barn. [00:18:00] Everybody's just doing their thing. You know, and it's not like the service is slow, it's expedient. But that's kind of the same thing that, that I look at with what we do. in, in, in, our realm of hospitality.
[00:18:12] Dean Ogan: Is people shouldn’t see us running around the room.
[00:18:14] you know, trying execute your wedding as quickly and as best as we can. We have to have,
[00:18:20] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:18:21] Dean Ogan: You know, good, happy, qualified people on hand.
[00:18:23] Courtney: For sure. Yeah. Which I think you do.
[00:18:25] Dana: Yeah.
[00:18:26] Courtney: Always felt that way.
[00:18:26] Dana: I agree.
[00:18:27] Courtney: So, I think like getting back to just kind of thinking 180 part-time employees and 90 full-time employees.
[00:18:36] How do you take a step back? Like how do you utilize your team to be able, are you able to take a step back?
[00:18:41] Dean Ogan: Well, I, it's, everything is a roles and responsibilities
[00:18:45] thing for me.
[00:18:46] and I, I, I, I have very specific things that I have to do in my, in my seat on the bus
[00:18:53] Dana: Right.
[00:18:53] Dean Ogan: They're things that I don't have to do that I do anyway as a teammate.
[00:18:58] So for, for example,[00:19:00] you know, tonight, tomorrow night, Friday night and Saturday night, I'm gonna be at events.
[00:19:05] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:06] Dean Ogan: That event's not gonna go any better, becasue I'm there.
[00:19:09] It just isn't, I mean, I'm going to a big buffet tonight for like 300 people.
[00:19:13] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:13] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:13] Dana: Yeah.
[00:19:13] Courtney: Yeah
[00:19:13] Dean Ogan: It, it does not matter that I'm gonna be there from an execution standpoint. What matters is from a culture standpoint, this is one of the busiest weeks of the year.
[00:19:23] And I'm gonna be there for my teammates.
[00:19:25] Dean Ogan: You know, even if I'm just helping serve the mashed potatoes or helping bus tables.
[00:19:31] It, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. But that, that to me is a cultural thing. As far as stepping back, I'm not great at it.
[00:19:38] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:19:38] Dean Ogan: Yeah. but, I do take my time when the time is,
[00:19:42] Courtney: Available, to take.
[00:19:43] Dana: mm-hmm.
[00:19:43] Yeah.
[00:19:43] Dean Ogan: I mean, next week I'm not gonna work much at all.
[00:19:47] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:19:48] Dean Ogan: Yeah. I'm gonna get outta town for a few days.
[00:19:49] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:50] Dean Ogan: I really won't come back until the 30th before we do New Year's.
[00:19:53] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:54] Dean Ogan: And then in January, I'll take January I won't work a single weekend you know? February I prob, probably won't work maybe, [00:20:00] one but.
[00:20:00] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:01] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Dean Ogan: But, But, but I feel like from what we do for a living, I think that's a big part of who, who I am.
[00:20:08] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:08] Dean Ogan: I, I'm, if we had 15 weddings on a Saturday and I was just kind of chilling at the beach, having a bourbon, I don't know that I could do that.
[00:20:15] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:16] Dean Ogan: you know.
[00:20:16] Dana: Well I don't think, I think it's a, I totally agree.
[00:20:20] Cause I think it also endears your team to you, because I think. And this is, I think what's hard in corporate right, is a lot of times you don't even see, you don't see the CEO, you don't see the owner, right? You see, upper level managers and whatnot. And when they are having a hard time and they are having a rough week, you don't really see that person coming down and saying like, how can I help?
[00:20:38] How can I make this better? And I feel like that's what corporate lacks is hospitality. And it's hospitality not just to their clients necessarily, but to their team and that very kind of servant attitude.
[00:20:49] And it's where you get these really toxic work cultures.
[00:20:52] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:52] Mm-hmm
[00:20:53] Dana: it's easy to do it unintentionally.
[00:20:55] And for us, like we have, we've taken a lot of steps back, so we don't even really go to events at [00:21:00] all. And we had hired somebody, and they were kinda doing like a hybrid, taking off some Bradford stuff off our plates, and then also doing some c and d stuff. And, we just packed her schedule and you know, and the whole time she's like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine.
[00:21:13] Courtney: Until it wasn't fine.
[00:21:14] Dana: And then we were gone. We were on vacation and we're coming back and we're just getting a download. And one of our people said, look, this person literally had a breakdown at this event. And I was like, oh, well what happened? She's like, she's just super overwhelmed. And from my perspective, I looked at it and I was like, I mean, I've been in so much busier, right?
[00:21:30] But I recognize it's her first time, in this job, she is a perfectionist. She wants to do it super well and like, and she wants, and she cares so much about it. So, she's putting so much energy and effort into it that it's stressing her out, overwhelming her. So, I called her, and I was like, hey, how are you?
[00:21:46] She's like, I'm fine.
[00:21:46] I was like, are you really fine?
[00:21:48] And I was like, I'm not gonna tattle, but someone said, you had a moment. She's like, I ha, I had a moment and. And I was like, well, how about this? Like, let me take some of these weddings off of your plate, like these Bradford weddings where I don't have to do anything but be the venue [00:22:00] person.
[00:22:00] I just gotta show up, right? And make sure the lights are on, bathrooms stay clean. No one burns down the building, you know, I can do that just fine. And she was like, no, no, it's, it's okay, it's okay. And I was like, no, like, let me do this for you. Like you're as like, this is not a slide against you. You're not gonna get a demerit from me, right?
[00:22:17] None of that, but let me, let me do this for you. As someone who, as your support person. And she did, and it was great. And I felt like it really like went a long way with the team because. I think sometimes when you don't do that, you're up here to them, like you're way above and you're kind of barking orders. And then it's not sometimes when you get in their level and you're digging in the trenches, when you're literally cleaning out a septic tank, at their event, they're like, oh, okay, well, you know, you're, you're on my side, I don't know.
[00:22:45] Courtney: But, I also think like when you get to be a, when you're doing a certain volume of business right, and you're as busy, like it's one of the things that we learned really quickly is that our time is better served, not client facing. Like that we [00:23:00] are going to make a much stronger team and be so much more effective by being able to be that, you know, firefighter and step in and be like, oh, I wasn't expecting this, but you're here. And I'm so grateful that our like mental ability to be able to say, it's not a big deal for me to take these few weddings from you, like I don't feel burned out from all the rest of the things that I'm doing.
[00:23:19] I think is so critical and I think there are a lot of people in their business, they get stuck in that spot where it's like they can't quite figure out how to delegate, they kind of overbook themselves on that, like, only I can do it.
[00:23:31] Or maybe they're worried about the financial aspects of hiring a manager or someone in between you and the client. And I think really it does your culture a disservice cause you're not able, cause you don't have the bandwidth to like step in and do what it is you need to do as an owner or as a higher-level manager or whatnot.
[00:23:48] I think for sure.
[00:23:49] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:49] Dean Ogan: One, one of the, the sayings or expressions that, that I hate is people will tell you, well, it's your business and nobody's gonna do it the way you do it.
[00:23:58] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:59] Courtney: I hope they do it better than I [00:24:00] do it.
[00:24:01] Dean Ogan: There you go
[00:24:01] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:01] Dean Ogan: And, and, and that's why y'all are successful is y when I go to events or when I'm working within the business and I'm not 30,000 feet up.
[00:24:09] I, I have to realize, don't go o.c.d.
[00:24:12] Courtney: Yeah,
[00:24:13] Dean Ogan: There's a time and a place for everything. And unless it's like something that's really gonna alter the guest experience, the client experience stay the hell out of it.
[00:24:21] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:22] Courtney: That’s right.
[00:24:22] Dean Ogan: You know. But otherwise, you know, I don't want everybody to do it the way I do it.
[00:24:26] Dean Ogan: you know, I mean, I'm a restaurant guy, you know, I, I'm a caterer now. But my background was, was restaurants. And I, I, I love listening to different perspectives and I'm not gonna agree with all of 'em, but you know. If, if Kevin D Heimer comes to me and, you know, he's, he's coaching me on something. We, we actually, we had an issue yesterday.
[00:24:48] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:48] Dean Ogan: And he, you know, I got, I, I had an opinion, I got frustrated with something and he was like, well, you know, you may want to kind of just hear, hear us out on how to approach this.
[00:24:57] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:58] Dean Ogan: And vicki came in, who's worked for me [00:25:00] forever. And Vicky knows how to handle me better than anybody.
[00:25:02] Courtney: We have heard that, we have heard that for sure.
[00:25:05] Dean Ogan: Yeah. But between the two of them, you know, they, they kind of talked me off the ledge and.
[00:25:08] They, gave me the service approach with that particular client that we needed to have.
[00:25:13] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:13] Dean Ogan: And, and I and, and that you have to be able to respect and know that your way is not always, the right way.
[00:25:20] Dana: Right.
[00:25:23] So what are some other things that you feel like, in your company that kind of, those core values, that company culture that helps, that you think helps retain your employees? So, obviously getting in the trenches with them is super important, but what are some other things that you, to help with our retention.
[00:25:37] Dean Ogan: Our philanthropic works a big deal.
[00:25:38] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:39] Dean Ogan: I, I, I think that is really, really important to a lot of my teammates.
[00:25:45] We did a lot of it during COVID, but before that we still were involved with a lot of different things.
[00:25:51] You know, we feed the homeless every month at Oak City Cares. we're very involved with A Place at the Table downtown.
[00:25:56] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:57] Dean Ogan: And then, I sit on the board of a [00:26:00] group called Overflowing Hands, and we do a lot of work all over the place.
[00:26:04] And they, they recognize that. And you know, I mean, I'm going on a mission trip on Sunday for two days in Kentucky.
[00:26:11] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:26:12] Dean Ogan: And we are so stupid busy this week. It's ridiculous.
[00:26:16] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:16] Mm-hmm.
[00:26:16] Dean Ogan: But I still ask these guys, we're we're, doing Christmas for 20 families.
[00:26:19] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:19] Dean Ogan: I asked my, my, my culinary teammates, can you guys help me out? I wanna pack out meals.
[00:26:24] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:25] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:25] Dean Ogan: And, and I'm like, I can't believe I just asked them to do that. They're all working like to death this week.
[00:26:30] Dana: Right.
[00:26:31] Dean Ogan: And nobody flinched.
[00:26:33] I mean, they're like, no problem. We got it.
[00:26:35] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:35] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:26:35] Dean Ogan: I mean, we're, we're doing 1200 meals for the community, Christmas meals for the community on Monday.
[00:26:39] Courtney: What's 40 more
[00:26:40] Dean Ogan: Yeah.
[00:26:41] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:26:41] Dean Ogan: And they're like
[00:26:42] Dana: That’s a lot.
[00:26:43] Dean Ogan: No problem.
[00:26:44] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:44] Dean Ogan: I mean, the, these guys will, my, I know my chefs, I mean, these guys are all ear early birds. Three or four of 'em will probably show up on Monday morning at three or four in the morning to do these meals.
[00:26:53] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:53] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:54] Dean Ogan: But, but that, that right there, that knowing that this is more than just dropping as [00:27:00] much as you can to the bottom right hand corner.
[00:27:02] And that it's important for all of us to, you know
[00:27:04] Dana: mm-hmm.
[00:27:05] Dean Ogan: participate in, in, in the community work.
[00:27:07] It's.
[00:27:08] That's, I I, think that's a really big deal.
[00:27:10] Dana: Yeah.
[00:27:10] Courtney: I, think that is totally a big deal.
[00:27:12] Dana: Yeah.
[00:27:12] Dean Ogan: And, you know, all the, all the little stuff is big stuff, you know. We know when everybody's work anniversary is. We know when everybody's birthday is.
[00:27:20] Anybody in, in the, our main commissary building, when it's their birthday we're, we ask 'em what they want for lunch. and then we buy lunch for everybody in the building. Employee of the month programs.
[00:27:30] Dana: mm-hmm.
[00:27:31] Dean Ogan: people may think they're hokey. I don't at all. I think, I think, it's awesome.
[00:27:35] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:36] Dean Ogan: You know, I mean, we, we get that person and we get everybody in the building. And we make that announcement once a month.
[00:27:42] Dean Ogan: And you know, people beam with, with, pride, they're, they're, they're like, wow.
[00:27:48] Dean Ogan: You know.
[00:27:48] Dana: Yeah. It's, it goes, we talk a lot about gratitude and appreciation.
[00:27:53] Mm-hmm.
[00:27:53] And for us, that has been the thing that we have found that creates that company culture and maintains [00:28:00] those employees.
[00:28:00] And, and what's interesting is when we first started, I always thought appreciation was just like, oh, I said thank you, or, or I expressed my gratitude in a nice note or whatever. But, it's, it's seeing them for who they are. So things like employee of the month and recognizing, you know, you have busted your ass all month and I see it. And I see all the effort and the energy and they feel validated.
[00:28:20] Like, okay, like I'm working for someone that, that respects, that respects my time and my efforts and my energy and my talents. And you know, and you don't find that everywhere. You don't find it anywhere. A lot of times, like in the world, like we just don't have that ability for someone to, to really see who we are, you know?
[00:28:37] So, I think that really, I think you're absolutely right, goes such a long way. And, and I think that's what gratitude is, is.
[00:28:43] Accepting who they are, where they are. On every level, right? You're not trying to change them. You're not trying to say like, I don't like this about you and I want you to be X, Y, Z.
[00:28:52] It's like, you know what, this weird talent that you have, I didn't understand actually is amazing and we're gonna celebrate that.
[00:28:58] Dean Ogan: You know, No, no. That's [00:29:00] awesome.
[00:29:00] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:00] Dean Ogan: Yeah.
[00:29:01] I, I think, I think something else that's really important is just not to sweat the nonsense or sweat the details. And, And, again, it goes back to the, the family business thing. and I, I can give you a couple examples.
[00:29:13] Dana: Yeah.
[00:29:13] Dean Ogan: You know, I, it could be, I, I have an employee that had a, a knee issue, and he had to go out in the middle of the holidays. He's a key team teammate and he had to get his knee done.
[00:29:25] Courtney: mm-hmm.
[00:29:26] Dean Ogan: And he's out not long enough to get short-term disability.
[00:29:30] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:30] Dean Ogan: but long enough to where he's gonna miss three or four paychecks.
[00:29:33] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:35] Dean Ogan: There's no way I'm not gonna pay the guy.
[00:29:36] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:37] Dean Ogan: It's not even a discussion, you know, it's just, that's just what it's gonna be, is he's gonna be on payroll.
[00:29:43] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:43] Dean Ogan: You just don't, you can't worry about the little stuff like that.
[00:29:46] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:48] Dean Ogan: You can't let money get in the way of good sense and doing the right thing and, you know, just general kindness.
[00:29:55] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:55] Dana: Do you feel like that's just instilled in you, or do you feel like that's something that you [00:30:00] had to develop over time? Cause I think that's a really hard thing as a business owner to say. Like.
[00:30:05] Dean Ogan: No, I, I, I, I, you know, the, everybody evolves. I mean, I'm completely different than I probably was as a, as a business owner 20 years ago.
[00:30:15] And I mean, you know, I'd be totally full of crap if I said when I was first starting out that it was like, ah, money for everybody, I don't care. It was, I mean, you know, you, you're in a situation when you get started.
[00:30:26] You got immense amounts of debt
[00:30:27] Courtney: Got no money.
[00:30:28] Dean Ogan: You know, you're not making a lot of money. You know, I mean,
[00:30:31] Courtney: there's no money to be had.
[00:30:32] Dean Ogan: be
[00:30:33] No, No, I mean, when we first started with our, with our first restaurant, I mean, heck, I think I paid myself $32,000 a year.
[00:30:40] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:41] Courtney: Oh yeah. It took us years to get there. Yeah.
[00:30:43] Dean Ogan: Yeah. 500 years ago…
[00:30:45] Dana: Well, there was two of us, just to be fair.
[00:30:46] Courtney:
[00:30:46] There was two of us.
[00:30:47] Yes.
[00:30:49] Dean Ogan: Yeah, I mean, you, you get to the point where you just have to, you have to realize, you know, you've been blessed.
[00:30:53] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:30:54] Dean Ogan: You know, your, your business is doing well and everybody's gotta participate in that. [00:31:00] Everybody's gotta feel, feel that way.
[00:31:01] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:31:02] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:02] And I think it's just a mindset that money, that wealth is not just about money either. And I think, and especially business wealth isn't about your actual bottom line, what your profits are. For us, our wealth and our business is our people. And the fact that I, I have, a lot more time.
[00:31:18] Mm-hmm.
[00:31:18] And I have the time because I pay my people well, because, you know, we're kind to them.
[00:31:23] We wanna take care of them. We wanna, we don't want them to burn out. We do, we safeguard that.
[00:31:27] Mm-hmm.
[00:31:28] and that creates wealth to me. And I think it's, I think there's just this misconception that it's all about the bottom dollar. It's all about, you know, the money. And, and I think that when you, and you said this before, like when you invest in those people, that money does get so much bigger and so much better.
[00:31:44] Dean Ogan: And you know what's fun?
[00:31:45] I don't know how far we are into this conversation. but we haven't talked about money one time.
[00:31:49] Dana: Right.
[00:31:50] Courtney: Oh, really?
[00:31:51] Dean Ogan: You all didn’t mention money.
[00:31:52] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:52] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:31:52] Dean Ogan: I didn’t mention money. We haven't talked about benefits or 401ks or health insurance. Yeah. And all that stuff's important.
[00:31:57] Courtney: It is.
[00:31:58] Courtney: Gotta have it
[00:31:58] Dean Ogan: let's not fool [00:32:00] ourselves, but none of it had anything to do with this conversation until, until point
[00:32:05] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:06] Dana: Right?
[00:32:06] Dean Ogan: Which means, you know, at least what it means to me is it's, it's not first and foremost. Right. Like, I don't, I don't think I'll ever lose somebody because of money.
[00:32:15] Right?
[00:32:15] I'm gonna lose, I'll lose somebody because, you know, for, for, for a cultural reason.
[00:32:21] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:21] Dean Ogan: you know,
[00:32:21] meaning they don't wanna work Saturdays and Sundays anymore.
[00:32:24] Courtney: Right.
[00:32:24] Right,
[00:32:24] right, right.
[00:32:25] Dean Ogan: You know? But I, I, I don't think, I can't remember the last time I lost somebody because of money.
[00:32:30] Courtney: yeah.
[00:32:31] Dana: Yeah.
[00:32:31] Dean Ogan: It’s just, it's never, a thing.
[00:32:32] Courtney: I agree with that
[00:32:32] Dean Ogan: a
[00:32:33] Dana: Yeah.
[00:32:33] Courtney: Yeah. I think that's fairly similar for us.
[00:32:36] Dana: Yes.
[00:32:37] Dean Ogan: Do y'all do you like an evaluation? When you, when you lose somebody, do, like, do you look at it and go, okay. Especially like a good person, like somebody, yeah. Somebody that was a teammate, you just love. Do you do ever
[00:32:47] well
[00:32:48] reflect on it and go, gosh, what we've done different or?
[00:32:51] Courtney: We have fired people. And we've had people that have left because of obvious reasons. Like they got, their husband was transferred out [00:33:00] of the state. Or they were moving to another state. But we've never really had anybody,
[00:33:04] Dana: I think, I think probably our last, salesperson before Molly was one where we had to take a step back and ask why.
[00:33:10] And, and I think she, it was Maggie. I mean, I'm not.
[00:33:15] Maggie.
[00:33:16] We're still great friends today.
[00:33:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:33:18] But she, it was one of those, it was one of those situations where she wanted to move to Denver. But I think the call to Denver started because of a deep unseated happiness.
[00:33:28] Truly where she was and she would never say that because she, like, she still calls us on her work, on the day we hired her every year on December 4th, and she said, this is the day you guys hired me and changed my life, you know, like. And so I don't think it was because she was wholly unhappy with the team.
[00:33:44] I felt like she was feeling stagnant in her life and that the job was no longer serving her and as her employers, we did not take the time to say, how can I make this your dream job?
[00:33:57] What do I need to do to make [00:34:00] it so that you can grow? And, and maybe the answer would have been nothing. Right.
[00:34:04] But I, I can't say that's all certainty that that would've been her answer. And I can't say with all certainty that if we hadn't served her in that way, that she would've told, you know, her person, like, you know what, this is my dream job, and I love it here and I can't fathom moving to Denver and that's just not an option for me.
[00:34:18] Right?
[00:34:19] Dean Ogan: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:19] Dana: I'm not saying she would've picked us over him or anything like that. I just, yeah, I think that there, for us, like that was a moment where I had to take a step back and like we're doing one-on-ones in January and I, and I have them filling out this sheet and one of the question is, is, you know, what is it that you felt like you failed this year on, like you personally. And then what are some steps that you feel like you can take?
[00:34:40] What are steps that I need to take for you? Like how can I ensure your success. And how can I make sure that this becomes a job of everything that you want it to be? Because I'm not faultless in it, you know.
[00:34:51] Dean Ogan: Our one-on-ones.
[00:34:52] Your annual
[00:34:53] Courtney: Annual yeah. Yeah. Annual
[00:34:54] Dana: Yeah. So, we just do like those annual reviews and like make sure that we're all on the same page and make sure that they're, they wanna grow in [00:35:00] the same place too.
[00:35:00] Mm-hmm.
[00:35:01] like, and, and it's hard in this industry. Like, it's hard. There's a, there's, there's a ceiling for a lot of people. If you're not an entrepreneur there's only so far you can go. And so, it's, how can I make. How could I make you feel like you're not hitting that ceiling? You know, which just, it's hard sometimes it is. Sometimes you're just like, ah, the only way I can do that is by giving you possibly a better paycheck.
[00:35:24] Dean Ogan: Just like, or, or ownership...
[00:35:25] Dean Ogan: profit sharing.
[00:35:26] Dana: Right. All that. Like, that's it. You know, there's not like, I can't give you any more responsibility, like I you know, I can, we can talk about training, we could talk about doing more education, so you can better, better yourself, which we're all about, but you know, there's only so far you can go with it.
[00:35:41] Dean Ogan: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:42] Dean Ogan: That’s for sure.
[00:35:43] Dana: But yeah, I think it's, it's a tough question. And it's, and it's hard. And, and when we have failed at people, we are very bitter about it.
[00:35:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:35:52] And there's many, many times I'm just like, well, that person just didn't appreciate our culture and that person, blah, blah, blah.
[00:35:58] And it normally takes a couple months. And I'm like, [00:36:00] well, maybe it's because we really sucked at managing this person, like. Maybe there is a little bit of fault here that like we have to own and like, so we don't do it again. but it, it's not our immediate reaction of like, oh, it's our fault cause there's a little pride in there. I'd say
[00:36:15] Courtney: I mean, we've had it recently. We had, we didn't, this person didn't, I thought we were mutually agreed to part ways. But then when we actually did decide to part ways, we found out it wasn't quite mutual at that time. And, it took, it didn't take us long to get to the bottom of like, okay, we really did fuck that up.
[00:36:34] You know, like it really was like, it didn't take us the whole month. So, it was like weeks where like...
[00:36:39] Dana: Who, man. Dammit
[00:36:41] Courtney: We did not do a good job managing this person. We've been left with a mess here. Clearly, she was overwhelmed and she, we had no idea, you know, and Right. So, I mean, I think it's comes quicker and quicker now cuz I, I think that, I think part of having great team and having great culture and being able to build is also understanding like who you are as a manager. And realizing that there's just [00:37:00] some personality types and some people that you are not gonna be able to manage.
[00:37:03] And that is okay. We don't have to ascribe a good or a bad label to that, it just is. And being okay with that as well, you know?
[00:37:12] Dean Ogan: And people grow outta positions too.
[00:37:13] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:14] Dean Ogan: Especially in this industry.
[00:37:15] Dana: Yeah. Yes.
[00:37:16] Dean Ogan: That, that's the one where,
[00:37:18] Courtney: There's a lot of Groundhogs Day.
[00:37:19] Dean Ogan: Yeah.
[00:37:20] Dean Ogan: Well, you know, it's like, okay, you're working 45 Saturdays a year
[00:37:24] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:24] Dean Ogan: and then things change. All of a sudden maybe you get married
[00:37:27] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:27] Dean Ogan: And you have a kid.
[00:37:28] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:37:28] Dana: Right.
[00:37:29] Dean Ogan: Man.
[00:37:30] Courtney: I wanna hit a basketball game every now and again with them.
[00:37:32] Right.
[00:37:32] Dean Ogan: I wanna go to, I wanna go to the soccer game.
[00:37:33] Dana: Yeah.
[00:37:34] Dean Ogan: I I want to do Disney and ice and, you know, and all this stuff's on weekends. And you know, I, I mean, I'm a parent and I get it. And you have to have that balance. But I can't manage the balance for one of my teammates.
[00:37:51] Courtney: Yeah. And,
[00:37:51] Dean Ogan: I just can’t. Because balance is an individual thing.
[00:37:55] Dana: Right.
[00:37:56] Dean Ogan: My balance is, gimme my Sunday off, please don't call me. [00:38:00]
[00:38:00] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:00] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:00] Dean Ogan: And you know, I wanna be home for dinner with my family.
[00:38:03] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:04] Dean Ogan: 3, 4, 5 nights a week if I can.
[00:38:06] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:06] Dean Ogan: That's a big deal for me. That's my balance.
[00:38:08] Yeah.
[00:38:09] But for, for others, everybody's gonna have a different definition.
[00:38:12] And that, that's, those are the ones where, you know, we have, we have that happen from time to time where I'll have, somebody's been around for 5, 6, 7 years, they love their job, but their personal situations change. And they're trying to balance this thing out, at home with their significant other or spouse. That that's a, that's where you have to kind of see the writing on, on the wall.
[00:38:32] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:33] Dean Ogan: And figure out how you coach 'em up or coach 'em into, you know, a new direction.
[00:38:38] Dana: Right? And it is hard and for.
[00:38:41] Like, we hire a lot of young people, and so they are just starting their life. And the the scariest thing is when someone tells us they're pregnant. And I'm like, oh gosh. Like, I'm so happy for you. It's amazing being a mother and a parent. It's wonderful, but like all I can think of is your life is about to change in ways you have no idea, no [00:39:00] idea.
[00:39:00] And for us, I would love it to be like, okay, I would love to find a position for you where you're working Monday through Friday, nine to five. But that's not the industry, you know? And so sometimes, sometimes we can find a hybrid scenario, or we can do that. And sometimes it's just, you know what, like this is what's best for you and we wanna help support you in this, in this journey of wherever you are. If they decide that they don't wanna, they can't work. You know, the, the 45, 50 weekends.
[00:39:24] and those have been, they, and it's been hard because they've been great employees and they're so good at their job, but it's just, you know, that they will eventually be terrible at their job cuz they're so miserable.
[00:39:34] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:39:34] Dean Ogan: That was our CEO, Allison.
[00:39:36] Dana: Yeah.
[00:39:36] Dean Ogan: I, loved Allison. I mean, she was so awesome. She was like, you know, ying to my yang.
[00:39:44] Dana: You know, she's the, she, you know, she's one of those people that I appreciate so much because she had absolutely no problem telling me exactly what I didn't want
[00:39:52] Courtney: hear
[00:39:52] Dana: to hear.
[00:39:53] Dean Ogan: She'd, she'd tell me, nope, you're wrong. That's not gonna work that way. So on and so forth. But anyway, you know, she, [00:40:00] her and her husband had kids. Had one couple years later, had another, all of a sudden, they're one in three, two and four,
[00:40:08] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:08] Dean Ogan: three and five.
[00:40:09] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:10] Dean Ogan: you know, and she's the CEO of a pretty big catering company.
[00:40:15] Dana: Yeah,
[00:40:15] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:40:15] Dean Ogan: You know, and she had a lot of the same, you know, principles that I had, you know. She was never gonna let her teammates down.
[00:40:23] You know, so all of a sudden, she's looking at it like, well, this isn't gonna work for me personally, and she had to move on. And, and I respect her for it.
[00:40:30] Dana: yeah.
[00:40:32] Dean Ogan: Heartbreaking.
[00:40:32] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:40:32] Dean Ogan: Yeah. I mean, all the people I've lost in 25 years, like that one was just like
[00:40:37] Courtney: A gut punch.
[00:40:38] Dean Ogan: A huge gut punch. I'm like, no. I was, like, and, and I was willing to do anything. I'm like, okay, triple your salary and you can just work on Mondays.
[00:40:46] Courtney: Just don't go.
[00:40:47] Dean Ogan: Just work from 10 to one o'clock at home.
[00:40:50] Courtney: Uhhuh.
[00:40:50] Dean Ogan: It's like, I, I was getting completely unreasonable. I was like, all right.
[00:40:53] And she knew it.
[00:40:54] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:40:54] Dean Ogan: And she, she knew what was required.
[00:40:56] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:56] Dana: But yeah.
[00:40:57] Dean Ogan: I mean, sometimes you can only do so much
[00:40:58] Dana: Yeah.
[00:40:59] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:40:59] Dana: So true. [00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Courtney: We have some like epic hiring and firing stories. We don't know if you'd wanna share any epic hiring or firing stories. I'm sure you have some doozies.
[00:41:07] Dean Ogan: There hasn't been a lot in recent history.
[00:41:10] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:41:11] Dean Ogan: Just because I've, I've become such an over communicator, and preached that to my team.
[00:41:17] You know, you, you mentioned your one-on-ones earlier, and one thing I always tell the leadership of our company is if you go into a review, you're one on one. And anything is discussed that comes up as a surprise to your teammate that you're doing the review with. You have completely and utterly failed at your job.
[00:41:36] Dana: Totally.
[00:41:37] Dean Ogan: Like if I, if I, if I just came up to you and said, you know, I, I just can't believe how terrible your uniform is.
[00:41:42] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:43] Dean Ogan: Do you not have an iron can do? Do you not wash your apron? I mean, what's happening? And if that's the first time that person's hearing that, that's, that's not a them problem.
[00:41:51] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:52] Dean Ogan: that's a you problem.
[00:41:52] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:53] Courtney: Right?
[00:41:53] Dana: Yep.
[00:41:53] Dean Ogan: Because you didn't set the expectation level correctly.
[00:41:56] But that's, that's generally where we get into trouble is when, [00:42:00] when that's the case.
[00:42:00] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:42:01] I feel like for us, when we've gotten into trouble, with firing is when we have taken. We have too much emotionally invested. Like we're too concerned about that person, that we're firings feelings and where they're gonna go next. And we tend to discount all the rest of the team that's thriving and doing well, to keep this one person on, kind of, you know what I mean?
[00:42:25] And I think that like, as our business has grown and as our team has grown, the team is more important than the individual.
[00:42:30] Dean Ogan: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:31] Courtney: Right.
[00:42:31] And so when you have the individual that's really just not working out as much as you care about them because you've taken time and you've invested in their personality and all that, if it's not working out, the team has to be paramount.
[00:42:41] Like it has to be more important than that person. And I feel like when we've gotten it wrong, it's been when we were just hyper focused on that person.and not the rest of the team.
[00:42:49] Dana: And it's hard, it's hard to balance the humanity of business sometimes. You know, because they are humans first, they're not just my employees. And I f I find that for us, like what [00:43:00] we, we make bad choices because we make assumptions. We assume that this person would prefer to know six weeks out, this is gonna be their last date, because we wanna give them.
[00:43:11] Courtney: No
[00:43:12] Dana: The cushion to find a job. And that was our assumption. And it's, and for them going to work for six weeks, knowing they weren't wanted was hell for them.
[00:43:21] They felt terrible. Right. And so it's just, and that's literally what it is. It's just like, okay, so. Understanding who that person is and understanding like what their tolerance level is and, and, and if they actually cared, right?
[00:43:34] Dean Ogan: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:35] Dana: And, that one, epic, one of our epic firings was that, and it was like, you know what? It would've just been better if we just pulled her one day and said, you know what, this isn't working out. We're gonna give you two weeks’ severance to get your feet off your off the ground. Let us know how we can support you and.
[00:43:49] Courtney: Peace out.
[00:43:50] Dana: Bye. Like, thank you.
[00:43:52] You know?
[00:43:52] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:52] Dean Ogan: You know, you know, we, we talk about staff every week. We get these end of shift reports. All of our event [00:44:00] managers have to fill 'em out. And it's everything from who performed well were, they're in a uniform issues. Did we run out of food? I mean, just all sorts of stuff.
[00:44:08] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:08] Dean Ogan: But we always talk about this and we were actually in our staff meeting yesterday. And we had two people, a lead, a lead in the kitchen, and then the event manager. And both of these people, they're on chance 16.
[00:44:24] Courtney: Okay.
[00:44:24] Dean Ogan: You, know.
[00:44:25] Courtney: They're on the edge.
[00:44:26] Dean Ogan: edge.
[00:44:26] They're on the edge, and it has nothing to do with work ethic.
[00:44:28] It has to do with how they. Treat their coworkers.
[00:44:32] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:33] Dean Ogan: And, you know, I, I, I finally, you know, we were having this conversation about 'em in the meeting, and I, and I finally looked at everybody. I was like, you know, this isn't about anything other than how they make everybody else on their team feel.
[00:44:46] Dean Ogan: And that to me is probably it.
[00:44:48] It's the cancer thing, right?
[00:44:49] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:49] Dean Ogan: just
[00:44:50] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:50] Dean Ogan: It, it, makes everything worse. And, you know, they, everybody was like, well, we, we shouldn't put those two together on an event. I was like, that is, [00:45:00] worst strategy ever.
[00:45:01] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:01] Dean Ogan: I go, if they're bad together, they're, they're gonna be bad separate.
[00:45:06] And, and keeping, keeping them on. And.
[00:45:08] Courtney: It's like, why are you gonna poison two wells and not one.
[00:45:11] Dean Ogan: That’s right.
[00:45:12] Courtney: And,
[00:45:12] Dean Ogan: and to me it's, when, when. When you have a really good culture within your business.
[00:45:17] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:18] Dean Ogan: You build that up and you've got a bunch of high performing people. People like that, that don't perform, or they don't have the right attitude, they really, really stand out.
[00:45:28] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:28] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:45:29] Dean Ogan: And, and that's where it's kind of, it's weird because it's kind of a positive to me
[00:45:34] Cause I'm like, okay, that person, although they have strengths, those couple weaknesses, the rest of the team's not tolerating it.
[00:45:41] Courtney: Right.
[00:45:41] Dean Ogan: You, you know?
[00:45:42] Dana: Yeah. No, and where, where, where it all goes wrong is when you, when everyone sees it. And you are silent about it, and you don't take care of it, because then they think, well, now I can have this bad behavior. Right.
[00:45:55] Or they think, well, they would rather have, they valued this person over [00:46:00] my own feelings and how, how I have felt about it. And it, and they lose all respect for you.
[00:46:05] Like, and it's, and it, it doesn't come from a place of, and that's not the truth. It's not because you re you like that person more or whatever it comes from. I don't know, just that maybe it's a fear. Maybe it's, you don't know how to deal with the situation.
[00:46:18] Like maybe you don't know if firing you're, you're in that internal battle. And so for us, like a lot of it is just about transparency with them is just saying like, you know, we understand that, but creating a zero tolerance policy.
[00:46:31] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:32] Dana: These are things where you don't have 17 chances on, you have one chance, like one chance to change it.
[00:46:37] And if you don't change, whatever, this is these very high, high value things. It's just, it's not a good fit and it's done. You know? And that's okay. We're just not, we're not the right company for you. You know.
[00:46:49] Dean Ogan: Yeah. I mean, integrity issues. You know, stealing, lying. And then just the, the general poor attitude that where you're, you know, polluting the, well, those [00:47:00] are the things to me that you just can't, you can't have chances on. Those need to be very quick conversations. I mean, li, lying or stealing, especially stealing, that's, that's a, yeah. You know, aios, conversation. that's quick.
[00:47:12] But, but the other stuff, it's, you know, you're, you're not a very happy person. Is it, is it the job?
[00:47:18] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:19] Dean Ogan: Or is it just you?
[00:47:19] Dana: This isn't the right season for you too. I mean, everyone goes through stuff.
[00:47:22] Courtney: So, I'd like to like end on a positive note here, and we've loved all of your insight, but what's been the most rewarding part of starting Rocky Top and like, spearheading that ship.
[00:47:32] Dean Ogan: I think it really comes down to this whole conversation we're having. It's the family
[00:47:36] Courtney: that
[00:47:36] mm-hmm.
[00:47:36] Dean Ogan: we built the work, family I have you know, I have so many people that I've worked with for a long time and, you know, that I feel like are just an extension of my family.
[00:47:45] Yeah.
[00:47:46] You know, we've been, we've been successful. We've, we've, you know, made all the money we'll ever need and all that fun stuff. I mean, that's, that's obviously important. But, you know, I've,
[00:47:55] Dean Ogan: I've had a job for the last 25 years. That I [00:48:00] really enjoy going to.
[00:48:01] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:48:01] Dean Ogan: you know, I, I, there, there are very few days, no matter how busy we are, how crazy things are, no matter what I have to deal with or I'm like, Ugh, God, do I not wanna go to work today?
[00:48:11] Dana: And, and I think I, I think that's a blessing.
[00:48:13] Dean Ogan: I I I I
[00:48:14] don't think I, I think, I think that's a one percenter thing where, you know, you really wake up and you're like, okay, this is cool. I'm ready. to go. I'm ready to go to work. I think a lot of people are not in that situation.
[00:48:25] Dana: Yeah.
[00:48:26] Courtney:
[00:48:26] I
[00:48:26] Courtney: I would agree with that.
[00:48:27] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:48:27] Dean Ogan: Do y'all love going to, going to work?
[00:48:29] Courtney: I do. I mean, I love going, I love being with the team. I love going to work and I love what I do. There's certain aspects like, you know, there's maybe like a task that I have to do that's like, like for example, I review and pick all the insurance every year.
[00:48:42] Dean Ogan: I swear to god I'm doing that when I get back today. I have to finish our general liability insurance. And it is, I, I,
[00:48:47] I'd rather walk on hot coals.
[00:48:47] Courtney: And if like Erie sends and, if Erie sends me one more audit, I swear I'm gonna pull my hair out. I'm like, I just filled out this audit. I don't understand. Like nothing's changed.
[00:48:55] Dean Ogan: Yeah.
[00:48:55] Courtney: Can I just, ditto from the last audit. So, I mean like, so, some things like [00:49:00] that, like, I'm like, okay, I don't necessarily love that task, but you know, it falls into like the financial, like, aspect, purview of
[00:49:07] Dana: That’s her lane.
[00:49:08] Courtney: That's my lane, that's my job. So I gotta do it. But you know, like being with, you know, the girls, we have all girls on our team, and you know, being able to teach. And working with Dana and walking in. Walking into something every day that you've created, kind of like living this dream that you at one point had, I think, is certainly like super rewarding.
[00:49:28] There's definitely times I don't wanna get out of bed, but I don't think that has anything to do with my job. Has to do with maybe like the temperature.
[00:49:34] Dean Ogan: Right? Right.
[00:49:36] Courtney: How much I drank the night before. How tired I am, you know?
[00:49:39] Dana: That was me this morning.
[00:49:39] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:49:40] Dean Ogan: Yeah. I, Yeah. I, I, I had a third old fashioned last night. I looked at my wife, I'm like, I, three old fashioned on a Tuesday.
[00:49:47] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:49:48] that's a Tuesday…I’m like what in god’s name is happening here
[00:49:48] Courtney: Tuesday. Yeah.
[00:49:49] Dana: It was, it was, it was a bad, it was bad choices. It was a vodka drink. Champagne. White wine, red wine, and then back to champagne. And I was like.
[00:49:58] Who did that? [00:50:00] I don't think it was me. I was possessed by something. It was like, who does that?
[00:50:05] Courtney: Who does that?
[00:50:06] Dana: Yeah, but I'm, I'm up, I'm here. It's not been that bad, but yeah. Courtney did get me a Big Mac on the way home, which was like, that is my saving grace. If I can eat a burger before I go to bed, I can normally survive the next day.
[00:50:21] Dean Ogan: She saved your life.
[00:50:21] Dana: She did. Literally.
[00:50:22] Dean Ogan: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:22] Courtney: My favorite story of Dana.
[00:50:24] she said on the pod, on the podcast. I can't remember what we're doing. We were just hanging out. She's like, do you wanna hear some shame.
[00:50:30] Dana: I have not told anybody this.
[00:50:32] Courtney: It's on the podcast now.
[00:50:33] Dana: Oh lord.
[00:50:34] Courtney: You had just gone to your 20 year
[00:50:37] Dana: Super embarrassing.
[00:50:38] Courtney: high school reunion.
[00:50:38] Dana: I feel like I’m blushing.
[00:50:39] Courtney: Oh really? I, this is, this is, this is Epic. And she was leaving the party right, that she does.
[00:50:44] And she always likes to, we stopping like literally like almost always. Stop and get a hamburger to spend a lot to drink. And I don't know where. Where'd you stop first?
[00:50:52] Dana: McDonald’s
[00:50:52] Courtney: She stopped at McDonald's.
[00:50:53] Dana: Got a whole meal.
[00:50:53] Courtney: Got a whole meal. A Big Mac meal. Right. Big Mac. A Big Mac, French fries, all those things drove down the road. She's like, [00:51:00] and I was still hungry.
[00:51:03] Courtney: So, then you stopped at
[00:51:04]: Dana: Wendy's.
[00:51:04] Courtney: A Wendy's.
[00:51:05] Dean Ogan: Oh wow.
[00:51:07] Courtney: And got another meal.
[00:51:09] Dana: Another burger and I get their french fries.
[00:51:10] Courtney: Ate the whole thing.
[00:51:12] Dana: And I was like, that was terrible.
[00:51:14] Courtney: It was fine. The next day.
[00:51:16] Dana: I was fine the next day, but I told Courtney, I was like, it was literally a week later, I was like, it was so shameful.
[00:51:21] Courtney: Do you wanna hear the shameful thing?
[00:51:23] I was like what is she about to tell me?
[00:51:24] Dean Ogan: I don't understand the science between the grease fixing and a hangover thing, but gosh it works.
[00:51:30] Dana: It does. It is. It is key
[00:51:32] Dean Ogan: I usually wait till the next morning.
[00:51:33] Dana: I mean, sometimes I have to do that to a Hardee's Biscuit.
[00:51:35] Courtney: It made me laugh.
[00:51:36] Mm-hmm.
[00:51:37] And laugh and laugh. I was like, that is impressive.
[00:51:40] that's a lot of food.
[00:51:42] Dana: I was very hung. I didn't have dinner, to be fair.
[00:51:44] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:51:44] Dana: You know.
[00:51:47] All right, well it's been
[00:51:48] Courtney: I know. So, fun hearing your shameful secret. Gotta keep it real on this podcast.
[00:51:54] Dana: Yes, yes. Awesome.
[00:51:56] Dana: Yeah.
[00:51:56] Courtney: Yeah. Thanks for coming out.
[00:51:58] Dean Ogan: absolutely.