[00:00:00] Courtney: Well, hi Ryan. Thanks for being here.
[00:00:02] Ryan Eves: Happy to be here.
[00:00:02] Courtney: Yeah. We're excited to have you.
[00:00:03] Dana: Yes, I know, I, I was telling you earlier, I told my kids that you were, we were interviewing you and it was like a little mini celebrity, like, oh my gosh.
[00:00:10] Courtney: cause our, cause our kids go to Camp Kanata.
[00:00:12] Dana: Camp Kanata. And I do have to say that like we, I think we started in 2018 was the first year we sent them.
[00:00:20] Courtney: And you sent them the year before to day camp
[00:00:21] Dana: Yeah. Day camp. Yeah. And then we did overnight camp and it like, it is like the magic of summer is waiting to get to camp for that week and it's just, and they come back they're, horse, they like, they lo lose their voice. There's tears they're leaving. It's such a magical place.
[00:00:37] Ryan Eves: Yep. I grew up at camp, so I firsthand experienced that as a kid. not wanting to leave and like being a little nervous going into it, and then, you know, begging my parents to either send me for another week or For three weeks the next summer and being sad and telling them, please be the last parents to come pick me up because I don't wanna waste a single moment here. So, I...
[00:00:58] Courtney: Were you at Camp Kanata or did you go to.
[00:00:58] Ryan Eves: I was at Camp Kanata.
[00:00:59] Courtney: Oh, wow that's super fun.
[00:01:02] Ryan Eves: Born in Raleigh and grew up at camp and spent 15 total summers there before taking a break and coming back in 2019, in a executive director role.
[00:01:12] Okay.
[00:01:12] Dana: yeah.
[00:01:13] Wow.
[00:01:13] Dana: So, you grew up at camp?
[00:01:15] Did you always say that's what you wanted to do or kind of what brought you into this path?
[00:01:20] Ryan Eves: So, the first week I ever went to camp, it was, I had never been to overnight camp before. Went with my best friend, and never went back with him cause I didn't need to, um.
[00:01:33] So at some point, you know, I, I spent four years as a camper. Some point in those four summers, I said, I want to be a counselor. I want to go through the staff trainee program.
[00:01:44] Which at Kanata is a two-year program. And then, you know, as a kid I always said like, well, I want to be a director one day. Just like you say, like, I want to be a comic book artist, or I want to be a fireman, or, you know, any of those things. But For me, that actually happened, because after college [00:02:00] I was trying to figure out what I was gonna do, and I worked at camp for about a year and realized, oh, year-round camp is actually pretty cool.
[00:02:09] Ryan Eves: The work that we get to do, not just being a counselor, being, you know, on leadership for the summer, the year-round work is pretty amazing. And the organization that we're a part of the Y is also pretty And so I just sort of fell into it and have never left.
[00:02:24] Dana: Well we really wanna talk today and really talk about, employing the younger generation and.
[00:02:29] You know, mentioned that we teach at Meredith and so we get to be around the Gen Z’ers and there's just so much negative connotation about these people coming, coming up in the workforce. So, we'd really love to hear about how you kind of navigate your employees, cause that's all you employ basically, is this younger generation.
[00:02:45] Ryan Eves: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's funny because when I started as a professional, the same thing was being said about the millennials. Mm-hmm
[00:02:53] And I was one of them, and so I was a new professional. Sitting in these conferences, in these classes around, you know, [00:03:00] how do you talk to millennials?
[00:03:01] And I was like, well, I'm, I'm right here, you're talking to me. It we're not as scary or as like, dangerous or, defective as we were sort of made out to be. And I think the same thing is true for Gen Z.
[00:03:15] you know, I'm, I have to say I'm biased because these are kids oftentimes at Kanata, that have grown up with us. And so, I've literally watched them grow up from being, you know, a 10-year-old to a 16-year-old who's going through our trainee program. And so, I think Gen Z, if that's what we want to call them, I think every article I read labels them something differently. um.
[00:03:38] And what they call themselves is, maybe something else, that will happen down the line.
[00:03:42] But I think watching them grow up, living with them, quite literally for, you know, 10 weeks out of a summer, gives me a different perspective on their unique gifts, their unique talents, and the pressure, pressures that they are feeling.
Because I think when I read articles about how to relate to Gen Z, a lot of what I think is missing is the conversation around, well, what is their life like.
[00:04:09] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:09] Ryan Eves: What is different for them that was different than other generations. And you know, at Kanata, we, I think one of the really, the great benefits that we have and why we've weathered, I think, the staffing storm differently than other organizations is we have a two-year staff trainee program. And so, when you, you know, quote unquote age out of camp at the age of 15, the next thing is to apply to be a camper in leadership training or a CILT.
[00:04:40] Ryan Eves: And then the year after that, if you want to come back and if you know, everything lines up, sometimes athletics get in the way, you can come back as a counselor in training. And those two years are really about helping them shift from everything is about me, to, because I'm a camper and campus for the campers, to, what does it mean to give back?
[00:04:59] [00:05:00] What does it mean to be a servant leader? And it's, you're talking about your daughter in basketball, it's not too dissimilar from shifting the focus to. I'm having fun in this moment too. I need to be more thoughtful about what brought me here, what brought these kids here, and then what happens now and in the future, and what impact do my decisions have on what happens next in the next day, the next week, etcetera, etcetera. And so I think there's so much that they have to give, chiefly their passion, like they are passionate if they decide to devote themselves to something, there's nothing else.
[00:05:38] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:38] Ryan Eves: for that period of time. Which I think is there, for camp, that's the most important thing that we want to see, is that they're interested in being there for the kids, for the experience that we're trying to create. and y'all know this at camp, we have a motto, be well and do good. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:55] And, if that's how they're living out and through that passion, then that's what [00:06:00] we're looking for. And that's what we get.
[00:06:02] You know, out of these kids.
[00:06:03] Dana: Yeah, that's.
[00:06:04] Courtney: Oh, I love that. Mm-hmm.
[00:06:06] Courtney: I've been trying to push Mason cause he's 14 this year. So, who have, he's finally in like the lower. What is it Lower Lake?
[00:06:13] Yes.
[00:06:14] He was like, I don't wanna go. I'm like, you're gonna be lower lake. It's gonna be Lower Lake year. He's like, okay, fine. But I'm like, counselor in training. I'd be like an amazing thing for you. He's got a huge amount of empathy.
[00:06:25] Dana: He's very soft hearted.
[00:06:26] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:06:26] Yeah, super soft-hearted. Yeah. Person. But he lives like his mother, so 10 weeks away would be difficult. Yeah.
[00:06:33] Dana: Yeah.
[00:06:34] Courtney: But Yeah, no, I love that. I, I think that, I think that's necess, I think that's necessary, like right now, like, I think when you're talking about that generation, I think to me, when I think about it, mentorship is more important than ever because I think in a lot of ways in the world we live in, we've like lost perspective. And I think more so in that generation, like they've lost perspective.
[00:06:53] You know, and I, and I feel bad, like I, I literally feel grief over like the world that our [00:07:00] kids are growing up in as opposed to the world that I grew up in. And, you know, not that there weren't like the one-off things, but like the information wasn't as prolific.
[00:07:09] You could shut it off. Like if there's a bully at school, you left school, you left them there. You know, like there's just no shutoff and there's so much information that I do think that, I think that kind of builds that tunnel vision for them. You know what I mean? I think that's why they have that hyper focus.
[00:07:21] Dana: mm-hmm.
[00:07:23] Courtney: Cause I do get focused on something, you know, and cause there's so many things coming at them all the time.
[00:07:28] Ryan Eves: I think what I've noticed is that their perspective is fragmented.
[00:07:33] And so they're, they're getting so many different viewpoints and the way that our phones and their phones give them information is there, they're inundated with so many different viewpoints that it's hard to know kind of what is my viewpoint. Because it shifts and changed is based on what, what's happening.
[00:07:54] In current events or what their friend group is talking about, or you know, what their, [00:08:00] For You page on TikTok is serving them.
[00:08:02] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:08:02] Ryan Eves: In that given moment, you know. And I think that's one of the benefits of working at camp is devices aren't a part of our day to day.
[00:08:10] Dana: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:08:10] Ryan Eves: So, you get to, and I think that's why kids want to come to camp, both as campers when they get older and as staff is to recognize. You know, they're better at putting down their phones and leaving them in their cabin than I am because
[00:08:22] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:23] Ryan Eves: I'm professional and I'm expected to be accessible, you know, all the time. But they don't have to do that. And so they get to, for the time being really turn their attention to the job at hand. And that's, again, when I say their passion is. They're dedicated to camp in a way that, you know, most employers would be over the moon, to have. Because. they are working long hours. They are doing…
[00:08:47] Courtney: Sweaty, sweaty hours.
[00:08:50] Ryan Eves: Doing a hard job. a really rewarding job.
[00:08:53] Um. And, you know, they're saying yes to something that isn't, isn't on its surfaced, [00:09:00] designed to create future success.
[00:09:03] I do think that we actually do create that. And know, that's, we talked about critical thinking earlier. I think that's one of the main things you get as a camp counselor and as a staff member is a master's degree, depending on how many summers you work in, thinking critically about your place in the world and how you relate to others and what that means.
[00:09:23] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:25] Ryan Eves: But yeah, this generation is really special. they push me and the rest of our full-time team to, think deeply about equity. that is, something that is forefront of their minds. How everyone, is treated, and how they're welcomed and included based on all the different ways that they've been made to be.
[00:09:47] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:47] Ryan Eves: You know, it, that doesn't lead to easy conversations at all. but it leads to meaningful conversations. I think the one challenge with that sometimes is they wanna move a lot faster than we can, [00:10:00] given, you know, we're a part of a larger organization, we're, you know, an organizations been around since 1954. It takes time to move
[00:10:09] those kinds of, organizations. But you know, their, their eagerness to see something better.
[00:10:19] Is, is really energizing, and affirming because it, it helps to say, you know, we're going in the right direction.
[00:10:25] This is the next generation of leaders, it's not you know. Sometimes it's at odds with the parents we're serving, you know, depending on, on where we are or what kinds of changes we want to make. And sometimes it's at odds with our alumni who remember camp as a certain way and now we're gonna change that. And what does that mean for their memories? But, you know, the way they push us and the way that they help us to imagine a new future, I think is really important.
[00:10:52] Dana: Yeah.
[00:10:53] Ryan Eves: And another thing that I'm grateful for.
[00:10:56] Dana: Yeah. That's really. I mean, I feel like that like so much [00:11:00] hope giving, because sometimes you just don't always feel that way necessarily. But I do agree. I think that there is something about, you said the word equity, and I feel like that is like on the forefront of so many people's.
[00:11:12] Just even the way that they speak, the way they talk about other people and try to be inclusive and whatnot. And I remember even my kids, like at school, I think it was last year, the, I think it was like the first week of school they had a whole, conversation about pronouns. Like just, they just wanted to be sure that they were being respectful to everybody's needs and wants and to recognize and to see them to, to be seen.
[00:11:35] And I think that is what is so, so special about camp is you pick up your kid and yes, they're happiest, they had a great time, but they feel genuinely seen. And when you get that report of who your kid is, you're like, oh my god, this is spot on. Like they're, it's not like fluffy words cause they actually took the time to get to know your kid and understand who they are.
[00:11:58] And I find that to [00:12:00] be so amazing from a generation of, of people that you hear that are so self-centered. Right?
[00:12:07] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:12:07] Why?
[00:12:07] Dana: And so con just, concerned about their appearance and how they look and it's all, all seem very superficial and it's like, well, that's just not what I see necessarily.
[00:12:15] Courtney: Well, I, I, I mean, concerning that topic, I think that people, I think that this generation in particular is gonna be really against that, like, I think they do crave more authenticity.
[00:12:24] But I remember it wasn't last year, but it was the year before we registered Nora as Nora for camp and blah, blah, blah. And that summer she told everyone that her name was Reagan, which is her middle name. And all of the information I got from camp and documents were Reagan's having an amazing time and Reagan is the life of the cabin. And it was just so funny, like, and it made me realize how, one, I love the autonomy they have at camp.
[00:12:50] I like, I think it's good for kids to be separate from their parents and to have an identity that's separate from their parents. Also, how readily that was embraced at camp. Like, oh, [00:13:00] this is Reagan, you know, and she is clearly Nora at home. but I just loved that. I, I loved like how they went with that and there was no questions and she really enjoyed it.
[00:13:09] She got to express herself in a way that she wanted to express herself during that week at camp.
[00:13:14] Dana: Yeah.
[00:13:14] Courtney: I, I think that. I think that this generation is looking more for authenticity and I think that, that kind of speaks to that for sure.
[00:13:23] Dana: Yeah. So, speaking of that, like what are some, if talk about employers, like what are some things that you feel like if they're trying to cause that, that is the next workforce, right?
[00:13:31] And that these people are graduating school and so you have these entry level jobs, whatever, what are some things that you would say that would be helpful to kind of connect with them and.
[00:13:38] Ryan Eves: Yeah.
[00:13:39] Dana: Employ them?
[00:13:40] Ryan Eves: So, I think one, helping them see the bigger picture that they're a part
[00:13:46] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:46] Ryan Eves: So, at camp that's easy because we can show them videos and photos and tell them stories that, of things that happened, you know, just last summer
[00:13:55] And so it, it can be a little easier for us, but I think every organization [00:14:00] has a big picture that they can connect these young folks too, to Gen Z. I think also challenging the narratives that we've created about Gen Z and like being willing to say, I've heard all these things, and the majority of them are negative. I mean, if you read newspaper articles and blogs and, you know, whatever that is, it does skew negative. It's not about the assets they're bringing. It's about, you know, the challenges that they face.
[00:14:29] And that is a way to look at it. But I'd rather come from like an asset, asset based
[00:14:33] Dana: mm-hmm.
[00:14:34] Ryan Eves: mentality around, you know, so how are you going to engage them in the broader purpose that you're going for. And that broader purpose for some Gen Z’ers probably is gonna be, I want to make a whole bunch of money.
[00:14:47] Mm-hmm. I think that's a lot of like social media, like engagement is, they're hoping to be that next influencer that you know, hits, you know, billion streams on TikTok or whatnot. But the reality is that's not gonna be true for most [00:15:00] people. And so what if, if their goal is to make a bunch of money, then how do you connect them to how they can do that and how they can contribute if they're motivated by more intrinsic values, you know, what are their values? You gotta take time to actually get to know them. And I think that's the other thing is we can't treat Gen Z as a monolith.
[00:15:22] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:22] of like, everybody is like this because, every single one of my staff members is an individual that is motivated by different things and it does, it it unfortunately takes a lot of time. Well, I think it's fortunate, but for somebody who's looking to like, you know, move things really quickly, you can't do that with them. You have to get to know them. The interview process has to be enough to say, I get who this person is and what they value.
[00:15:48] If we don't know what they value, then we're gonna stick them in a role that they just don't care. And the thing is, they'll move on quickly.
[00:15:55] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:56] Ryan Eves: That's the other thing that we've noticed is they will say no just [00:16:00] as fast as they say yes. And they'll move on to something and they won't be worried about it because.
[00:16:05] Courtney: Because I think their loyalties to their value and not to an organization
[00:16:08] Ryan Eves: and, the closer the organization is aligned with their values, the more likely you're gonna have loyalty from them. But even at camp, you know, as loyal as kids are, they'll come back and visit.
[00:16:20] But, if their next goal is not aligned with where camp is, and sometimes, you know, that's by necessity. We can't do electrical engineering at camp. I've got a staff member who's, gonna be traveling abroad to China next summer. We can't do that.
[00:16:36] Dana: Right.
[00:16:36] Ryan Eves: we're in Wake Forest and so that, that sort of, you know, that that's a hard thing to work around. But, supporting them and, you know, we, at the end of every campfire, and you may have heard this you know, I end every campfire with you, will always belong at camp. You don't have to always be here.
[00:16:53] You don't have, being present is not belonging, at least at camp. And so, you know, go do [00:17:00] build new things. Go do new things, challenge yourself, and you'll always have a place back here.
[00:17:04] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:05] Ryan Eves: And I think the more organizations can realize you're not, I think the term human capital has really kind of like gone away. I think we've realized that that's not treating our employees and our staff as they're not disposable.
[00:17:20] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:22] Ryan Eves: And the more we can see our staff as, and our employees as partners with us, that yes, they might leave, but what are they gonna go do that some way helps what we're gonna do.
[00:17:33] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:34] Ryan Eves: It's easier to say that in the non-profit world than in a cost-driven organization. Um.
[00:17:38] Dana: Um,
[00:17:39] Ryan Eves: But I think like connecting them to what matters to them and how that can serve them during the time that you need them to be a part of your organization. And then recognizing that they're also going to advocate for themselves more than I know, more than I did.
[00:17:58] when I was growing up, it [00:18:00] was, you know, this is your salary, these are the benefits, this is what you're gonna do. And it was like I said yes to this, that's great. My staff now, if they believe something's not right or if they believe they should be paid more, they're gonna advocate.
[00:18:13] And, that’s different. And that's hard for especially I think folks who are older than me, you know, I identify as kind of that mixture of Gen X and Millennial right in the middle there. Um.
[00:18:25] Courtney: They call us Zennial.
[00:18:27] Ryan Eves: or Geriatric Millennials. I heard one time, which I did not appreciate. Um.
[00:18:32] Courtney: But I identify as that too.
[00:18:34] Ryan Eves: but I think people from generations past that for young people to advocate for themselves in that way is seen as ungrateful, or as, just oppositional when really, it's just, they're doing what they feel like is best for themselves. And they're, they're leaning into skills that they've been taught in other ways and advocating not for them.
[00:18:56] They advocate for themselves, they advocate for others. Advocacy is a [00:19:00] huge thing. I mean, my staff are constantly advocating for the campers, that they serve.
[00:19:06] And even if it's one camper in their cabin and one little thing or one big thing that we could change, they're not gonna let that go until something happens.
[00:19:15] And so, you know, I think getting comfortable with the fact that they are not, my experience with them has been, they're not as beholden to hierarchical structures or like power dynamics. Like they'll challenge me as the executive director, you know, the one who's responsible for all of camp. They will challenge me the same way they would challenge a peer. And that can be uncomfortable if you're not ready for it.
[00:19:40] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:19:41] Ryan Eves: And it sa, seems like they're being, you know, insubordinate, but that's not what it is. They're advocating, they feel passionately and they're doing what they know to do, which is to go straight to the source and say something needs to change.
[00:19:55] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:55] Courtney: They're a little fearless in that way.
[00:19:57] Ryan Eves: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:57] Courtney: Yeah. We experience [00:20:00] this often.
[00:20:00] Dana: We do. And you're like, what? Did they just ask me that question?
[00:20:03] Courtney: We literally just got an email this weekend
[00:20:04] Dana: We did,
[00:20:05] Courtney: like with this exact same thing, like, I feel like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We haven't responded to it yet, but we will.
[00:20:11] But we've totally noticed that.
[00:20:14] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:14] Courtney: And it is a little like, I remember the first time that happened, it was years and years ago, but it was kind of like, whoa, whoa, wait. Just walk in my office and ask me for more money, like on a random Wednesday. Like, this isn't the end of the year. Like why are we talking about this now? You know?
[00:20:29] And, and I think that, I think they're reasonable though. And I think that just because they're advocating doesn't necessarily mean the answer's yes. But, what they do want is a strong reason as to why the answer's no. Like they're not just going to take the, because I said, so you're going to have to be a little more transparent about, like this is why we do things the way that we do things.
[00:20:49] And we've noticed more often than not, they're like, oh, okay. Like, that's fine, and I'll fall in line with your structure.
[00:20:55] Dana: Or, or it's very much like, you know what, we had the same vision. You're just about six months [00:21:00] ahead of that. And, this is what we need to see happen. whether that's in the business or whether that's you personally and your performance. Like this is why you haven't hit that mark yet and you know, let's table this conversation, you know, for six months. That's, but that's where we want you to be, like we are on the same path with that.
[00:21:17] Cause I think, and that was so funny. We had a, this was like kind of a follow up of a meeting we had, and in the meeting they're like, we just want some hope.
[00:21:24] Like, can we just have hope that this is gonna change next year? Like yeah, we can give you some hope that, yeah, totally. You know, but that was very much...
[00:21:31] Courtney: That's the one thing that I love about this generation is their, ability to, you're not having to read their mind because they speak it, but also, they don't take themselves too seriously. So, you can have like real conversations and it's enjoyable to manage them. Do you know what I mean?
[00:21:49] It doesn't feel like a constant power struggle, but you can have these open conversations and like be real with them and they'll accept that, you know? So, I think I do, I love that about it, but [00:22:00] it's definitely a diff different than the way that I was first managed.
[00:22:04] Dana: yeah.
[00:22:05] Courtney: Or about that boss employee relationship.
[00:22:07] Ryan Eves: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:07] Dana: And I think one of the things I'd love to have your opinion on too is sometimes, especially, like you said, we didn't advocate for ourselves, right?
[00:22:15] Like, you just accepted what it was, and you were just like, thank god I have a job. Everyone's like, just be grateful you have a job. And you're like, okay, I'm grateful that I have a job and I got paid. but I think for, and I think the first time this happened to me, it made me feel like they weren't a team player like, because I'm like, do you not see all what's going on and how everyone's pulling their own weight?
[00:22:33] And part of that is maybe you're not making, you know, the $70,000 salary that you want because we have X, Y, Z going on or whatever. How would you kind of encourage employers to kind of change that mindset that they have?
[00:22:47] Cause I think it does come across as for a lot of people that, oh, you're not a team player. Like you're just out, out for yourself.
[00:22:53] Ryan Eves: Yeah. And I think, again, we gotta go back to what's the culture they're in.
[00:22:57] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:58] Ryan Eves: And [00:23:00] the social media influencer is not a team, it's a, it's a, party of one. Yeah. You know, it's a company of one, and it's in some ways the ideal of like, I don't have to work. I can do what I want for fun and get paid for it. But that's, you know, I guess when we were growing up it was like, oh, I'll be a musician or an athlete or you know, somebody who gets paid all this money to do what they love. Which we all know, like there are very few people who get to do that. I think the, the challenge that we have is, you know, I have a staff member who had a post that went crazy on TikTok and earned a significant amount of money from one post.
[00:23:36] And so it feels almost tangible.
[00:23:38] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:39] Ryan Eves: To be able to do something and to be in control of your own fate. To be in be control of what you're, what you're making, what you're putting out there. And. Think all the different social media platforms give us, to some degree an illusion of like, we're in control of what we're putting out there.
[00:23:55] We're in control of our lives. Where to [00:24:00] be a part of a team. It it, I mean we spend for our leadership staff two weeks in training with them for our summer counselors a whole week where we get them, you know, for six days and it's an intensive and you know, this is what it means to work and be a part of this team and it takes the first three weeks of kids actually being at camp for some of them to get like, okay, this is what it means to be a team player. I can't, you know, be on my own little island.
[00:24:29] And so for Gen Z, I would say, you know, for other employers who are trying to navigate this, who don't get the luxury of having them like residential onsite eating and living and getting to know them, it really is like recognizing. There isn't an a feeling of if I don't take care of myself, no one will.
[00:24:48] Dana: Mm.
[00:24:49] Ryan Eves: Because that's, I mean, that is some of the narrative of, you know, big companies are bad.
[00:24:55] I don't know that that's always a hundred percent true, but there's also a lot of stuff in the news that like [00:25:00] they're seeing and they're paying attention to that doesn't give them the sense that a large corporation is out for my best interest.
[00:25:07] Dana: Right.
[00:25:07] Mm-hmm.
[00:25:08] Ryan Eves: To be, and we mentioned transparency. I think that is one of the keys is helping this generation see this is where we got, how we got to this decision.
[00:25:19] You know? Were you a part of every part of that decision? No, but the reasoning behind it, the why, behind why we came to this decision, and as much transparency as can be done, I think helps them.
[00:25:34] As a leader. I've also. I think this is really important. I've made a fair number of mistakes over the last few years of being in an executive role. And again, this generation is not afraid to call you out on when you've made a mistake. But being able to get up in front of a group of younger people who are quote unquote lower in the hierarchy, and [00:26:00] say, I messed up and here's my commitment to what I'm gonna do.
[00:26:03] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:03] Ryan Eves: to change that will go a long way and I don't know, I, I don't have that much experience outside of that based on what I read and what I hear. I don't think that's a really typical thing for like corporate America to have leaders who stand up and say, I really messed up. this is how I'm gonna do better.
[00:26:21] True accountability for that, I think is something that this generation is craving because it's very easy to see people doing the wrong thing and not suffering any consequences.
[00:26:36] And when you're young and you're not making a lot of money, when you are worried about paying the rent or how am I gonna be able to do this? Or man, I'd really love to do this fun thing with my friends, but I've gotta hold off on it. I think it's hard to see people when you're so driven by your values, people who seem to be driven by nothing, like [00:27:00] values, or values that are in complete opposition.
[00:27:03] I think knowing that they've got a leader whose values align with theirs, not that are exactly the same. And who's committed to growing and getting better and challenging themselves, is always gonna be somebody that they'd rather work for.
[00:27:17] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:18] Ryan Eves: And I, I hope that's true for me. I don't know that a hundred percent. But I think it's, it's definitely. we've been able to weather storms that if I had just dug in my heels in and said, I'm the leader. It doesn't matter if I've made a mistake. Or I'm the leader, this is the decision. I don't care what you have to say. We wouldn't be able to we, we would probably not be able to run the camp anymore. Because I don't, they won't stay around. And that's the other thing is they have options. They have a lot of options and. I think that's something as employers that we need to really get comfortable with is it's not as much of like they don't need us as much as we need them. And [00:28:00] we need to change our habits and our behaviors to align with that.
[00:28:05] Courtney: Which I think brings up like one of the things that we we've seen as college professors. And I think that you're so accurate that they will go all out for what they value. But then I feel like there is a lack of work ethic surrounding things that.
[00:28:22] Dana: they don't care about.
[00:28:23] Courtney: they don't care about, that they may not value right or wrong. Like they may just not know. They may not have the information as to why they should value it. They just don't take it seriously. And I feel like in our generation, again, the geriatric millennial, that it was very much like that didn't matter. Pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Get through it. It's gonna be better on the other end, you know?
[00:28:45] Dana: Well, it was like that. We, we, we were told a lie as kids. We were told a lie that if you worked hard and you did all the right things, that you would be successful. And it's just not the truth. It's not.
[00:28:57] Courtney: It's, it's not the truth to a certain [00:29:00] degree. However, I can certainly say that Dana and I are where we are because we worked hard through some things that necessarily weren't fun, pleasant, that we didn't wanna do. But we were able to just kind of like gutterly, like say, all right, I'm gonna, I know it's gonna be better on the end, so I'm gonna put myself through this because I can see that it's gonna be better on the end.
[00:29:17] And there's like two hoot things that I feel is one, I don't think that we've shown them a world that's better at the end, right? So, I think there's that, that's like, well that was a big lie, this isn't better. But then also, as much as I sometimes do wanna tell my employees, you know, suck it up, that's the way that it is.
[00:29:33] Like, we just have got to get through this moment or through this time or whatever and help navigate them through that. I also kind of admire their ability to say, no, I'm not gonna do that because like I don't believe in it. And I know that there's another way, another work around. But it also makes me nervous for the future. You know what I mean? It's like in a both and kind of situation.
[00:29:52] So like just opinion your thoughts on that. Cause I think you're right in the middle of that. I mean, I have a teen, one teenager. You deal with lots of teenagers and [00:30:00] I feel this deeply about him.
[00:30:03] Ryan Eves: So, I'll use last summer, as an example. You know, we, in 2020, we didn't have our traditional overnight camp because we didn't know enough about COVID to feel like we could safely do it. We did our day camp, we did family camps on the weekends.
[00:30:17] Dana: It's great. Yeah.
[00:30:18] Ryan Eves: All wonderful for those who got to be able to be there in 2021, we had this like blissful summer where we were testing to make sure everybody coming in was good. We had zero COVID all summer long.
[00:30:30] Courtney: You had the flu.
[00:30:32] Ryan Eves: That was 2021. You know, you jumped, you jumped ahead. 2022, completely different. COVID changed enough that testing wasn't enough.
[00:30:41] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:42] Ryan Eves: And so, you know, the first part of the summer was, people weren't sick, but they were testing positive for COVID and that was knocking staff out for five days. And you know, so that led to a lot of like, suck it up, you gotta do more because we don't have anybody else to bring in. And then you [00:31:00] mentioned the flu. you know, we were all caught off guard by, a summer flu that, you know, there was one week where it knocked out a significant number of our staff and it was really trying on everybody.
[00:31:11] Courtney: Was this week in July per chance?
[00:31:13] Ryan Eves: There were two different weeks last summer. that I'm sure your listeners are, if they know camp, they're probably familiar with that.
[00:31:21] But it was a surprise to everybody in the community, and, you know, it was hard to say. Because I think the other thing about this generation is they're very focused on, I've gotta care for myself before I can care for others.
[00:31:33] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:34] Ryan Eves: And it was hard to do that, and you know, to put them basically in a really tough spot to say, we've got kids to serve, your fellow staff members to support, and I'm, there isn't time for you to care for yourself. There wasn't time for me to care for myself either.
[00:31:52] Ryan Eves: But I'm the leader.
[00:31:53] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:54] Ryan Eves: And so, as it's different, wanna make sure that they are, the power [00:32:00] dynamics are still there and they, they want to understand. They want to see a leader who's willing to give up as much as they are giving up.
[00:32:08] And, so if you as the leader, if I as the leader are, are coasting while they're working hard, that's gonna, they would've left in droves. Like I would, we would've been in trouble. And I think that's true for most organizations.
[00:32:22] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:23] Ryan Eves: I think they need again, it comes back to this like, I think a misconception that they're very self-centered. I think they're very aware that the only way to do good is from a place of strength. And the only way for me to have strength is to care for myself, well. Where I think I was coached, I won't say taught cause I don't think anybody taught me this, but I was coached, and I learned by example that you just sort of grind until you're done. And then, you fall apart.
[00:32:58] Courtney: That's right.
[00:32:58] Ryan Eves: You pick yourself back up and put [00:33:00] yourself together, and then keep going. Where this generation is, they're not going to push themselves to the point where they fall apart, because I think they're dealing with a lot more hard stuff than I had to deal with. You know, I think about, like, I was in high school when the Columbine shooting happened, and I was a senior in high school when 9/11 happened.
[00:33:22] And those are the two kind of like formative moments. And I look at what this generation has had to endure and it's completely different.
[00:33:29] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:30] Ryan Eves: I mean, it's more frequent in some ways. In a lot of ways, it's more frequent the pandemic I think, has changed everything in ways that we won't understand for another 20-30 years.
[00:33:40] Courtney: And they won't understand until it's in textbooks.
[00:33:42] Ryan Eves: Right.
[00:33:43] Courtney: In your next psychology class.
[00:33:45] Ryan Eves: Exactly. but I think like that's also the, they didn't grow up with the same thing that we or what? somebody who is from Gen X or a, a Baby Boomer they don't, to try and [00:34:00] equate what you went through from those earlier generations, to them it doesn't work. And it's a lot of that is technology driven. And so, it's not so self-centered as it is.
[00:34:12] Courtney: Like self-preserving.
[00:34:13] Ryan Eves: Yeah. It, it's a recognition of all of these things that have been happening are not actually healthy.
[00:34:19] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:20] Ryan Eves: And aren't going to serve me towards what I want to do. And so how do I, I need to challenge that. And again, it goes back to advocating for themselves. They're willing to challenge the status quo because they recognize that the status quo has created challenges in a lot of places.
[00:34:36] And so our created problems in our work places And so they're not going to just sit still and be quiet and be like, okay, when I get to a position of power, I'll change it.
[00:34:48] Dana: Mm.
[00:34:48] Ryan Eves: They're saying I'm changing it now.
[00:34:50] Ryan Eves: I’m gonna advocate for change now because there's no guarantee that I get to be in charge someday. And so, I think they view power and [00:35:00] authority and influence completely differently.
[00:35:03] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:04] Ryan Eves: Than I know I did when I was younger.
[00:35:05] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:35:06] Dana: It's almost like they're creating their own light at the end of the tunnel. Like you were always told there was a brighter future, a better future, and you were working towards this, and it's like, they're like, I don't actually, I'm just gonna create it right now. Like, I wanna be a part of the solution now and, and experience, experience that now.
[00:35:22] Which I don't know if that's. I mean, I think it's amazing. I think it helps on so many levels. but it kind of makes me not sad, but like is it just because they feel like life is so fleeting cause they've been taught life is so fleeting.
[00:35:34] Like I never questioned my mortality. And we're the same age, cause I was a senior in high school when 9/11 happened, and freshman when Columbine happened. And like I never questioned my mortality. I never thought I'm not gonna make it to 30 or 40 or whatever, and.
[00:35:48] Courtney: Well, those are literal conversations that you have with your students. Like your kids.
[00:35:52] Dana: This is what happens. This happens in your school, this is what you need to do. Yeah.
[00:35:56] Courtney: I've had multiple conversations with Mason about that. Yeah. [00:36:00] Which is crazy. I mean, that's just, I mean, that's literally just crazy.
[00:36:03] Like to think about, but that's the world that we live in.
[00:36:05] Dana: But that's the pressure they're under.
[00:36:06] Like that, that can change your brain chemistry. I mean, any psychologist will tell you that, like the, a fear of everyday living is gonna change the way you view the world.
[00:36:18] Courtney: Which is I think why they're probably not willing to like put themselves through something that they don't believe in or, or going to have to endure. Because I don't think that they feel like they're guaranteed that like, years that we all thought we were going to get.
[00:36:31] Ryan Eves: mm-hmm.
[00:36:32] Dana: Mm-hmm
[00:36:32] Courtney: Like, I think we're shown that it's not guaranteed like every day.
[00:36:35] Ryan Eves: Okay.
[00:36:35] Yeah.
[00:36:37] Yeah. I would say I, I agree with that. And the other thing that, this is where my English major comes out. I love metaphors.
[00:36:43] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:43] Ryan Eves: And so, the metaphor of there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
[00:36:47] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:47] Ryan Eves: I think again, that goes back to kind of what we were taught is that you go through this thing to get to where you want to be, and I think for them that metaphor doesn't work. I don't think they're in a tunnel. I don't think they're [00:37:00] even on the same road, like, the images that come to my mind when I think about, like the staff that I work with is they're very, they are very present to the moment.
[00:37:08] They're aware of all the different options that they have to take.
[00:37:11] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:12] Ryan Eves: And so instead of, you know, like a, a dark tunnel that has a light at the end of it, they're on like a back-country road that has five different ways.
[00:37:19] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:19] Ryan Eves: That you get to the next destination. And they're just kind of taking their time and figuring out where, which is not to say that they're lazy. I think that that's also a danger of that metaphor is they're not, they're not without purpose, and they are not without a work ethic. Their work ethic I think looks different.
[00:37:38] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:38] Ryan Eves: And so, again, I think technology comes into this and somebody recently helped me see this, cause communication with this generation is really challenging. It can be really hard to get them to respond. And this is the one negative thing I'll talk about because it has a positive at the end.
[00:37:55] Dana: Okay.
[00:37:58] Ryan Eves: They, it can be very [00:38:00] challenging. So, when we're trying to hire staff for a weekend or to get people to commit to a working a weekend. It can take us multiple tries to get through to one person who ultimately is like, yeah, I'd love to work.
[00:38:12] Ryan Eves: And somebody, and I wish I could remember who, where I got this from cause it's not mine. But the text app on their phone is just another app where for me it's like my phone does a couple things. It's for calls, it's for texts, and then it's for all the other things that I need the internet for.
[00:38:32] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:32] Ryan Eves: Where for this generation, every app serves its own purpose. Calls are just another app. It's not like the phone, you know, we grew up with phones that all they did was call.
[00:38:43] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:38:43] Dana: Yeah
[00:38:44] Ryan Eves: That's not true for them. And so, you know, helping me see.
[00:38:49] The reason I can get somebody better through Instagram direct message is because it's just another app on their phone. It's just another way of communicating with them, it's one they happen to see at that way.
[00:38:59] Ryan Eves: So, there's five [00:39:00] different ways I can get in touch with my staff. And unfortunately, you know, for somebody who's trying to communicate to a hundred people, each one is slightly different in each one may respond differently. And the other thing is interesting is there's a, I think a, myth right now that this generation hates phone calls, which is actually sometimes the only way I can get in touch with my staff.
[00:39:23] They're not looking at their apps because they're overwhelmed by
[00:39:26] Courtney: mm-hmm.
[00:39:26] Ryan Eves: or they've turned off all the notifications because it's so much.
[00:39:30] But calling them one is, it's not a notification. It actually like interrupts everything that's happening on the phone.
[00:39:39] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:39] Ryan Eves: And two is valuing them in a different way. Like saying, I value you enough that I need to hear your voice. I need to talk to
[00:39:46] to you right this moment. And that's hard because I've gotten really used to not having to do that.
[00:39:52] Courtney: Don't
[00:39:52] mm-hmm.
[00:39:53] Ryan Eves: to where phone calls feel a little more annoying. I think that's a particular thing for millennials as well. [00:40:00] introverted millennials, probably even more so.
[00:40:02] Dana: Yeah.
[00:40:03] Ryan Eves: But recognizing that. failure, quote unquote, to communicate is not really on them as much as it is again, the environment.
[00:40:12] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:13] Ryan Eves: that they're living in. The context that they're living in is that they've got a hundred different notifications. And if it's a school project, or their fraternity, or sorority, or their service group, or their friend group, or their family group, all of these things are pinging them every day, multiple, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of times. And where, when I was growing up, there wasn't that noise.
[00:40:38] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:39] Ryan Eves: so, I could respond, and I did respond. I think the other flip side of that is that we get the opportunity to teach them how to live in a professional world where like responding to an email within 24 hours is a good idea.
[00:40:52] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:52] Ryan Eves: so most of the time it's an expectation of your employer that you do that. Right. And how you respond matters.
[00:40:59] [00:41:00] and so. I think, at camp we're oftentimes. people's first employer, so we have the privilege of teaching them. Can't say that we're always the, the best at teaching about formal emails.
[00:41:12] That's not our goal, at camp, but you know, helping them understand what's coming next, I think is, is a privilege that we have. But yeah, it, communication and helping them understand. Or helping us understand how are we getting through to them, when they want to be a part of what we're doing, but we have to find a new way of communicating.
[00:41:36] Dana: Yeah. That's super interesting.
[00:41:39] I remember. I mean, especially the phone call part, but it makes, makes total sense.
[00:41:43] Because I get overwhelmed by the very few apps that I have, and I don't have notifications set on anything, but my, text, text is the only thing that notifies me.
[00:41:51] Cause I can't, it would drive me, it would drive me crazy, all the pinging.
[00:41:54] Courtney: that. know. yeah.
[00:41:57] Dana: Well, we'd love to hear what has been, [00:42:00] the most rewarding part of your job.
[00:42:03] Courtney: Besides fulfilling a child pipe dream.
[00:42:05] Dana: I know.
[00:42:06] Ryan Eves: I guess I'll share, something that happened this morning. I was, down the road at the Y on Hillsboro Street, the Alexander family Y and one of the staff members that I've gotten the chance to work with over the last four years, or so. At the end of the summer I got a full-time job working for that Y. And I was working out of there and saying hey to people and, was talking to her and she was, going into a hard conversation, with someone and was really freaked out about it. She didn't know I was gonna be there. I didn't know she was gonna there.
[00:42:41] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:42] Ryan Eves: But I think being able to be with a young professional who is absolutely in this generation who, I've, all of the things we've talked about, like that's her.
[00:42:53] Courtney: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:53] Ryan Eves: Like passion. hard work, advocacy, not what you would, what we would call like [00:43:00] typical or what we would have expected but, you know, all of the, all of the good things about Gen Z embodied in her. And, you know, she is navigating a challenging situation that is new. First time she's ever had to go through it and has, people to help her and support her, but being able to be there and somebody that within like two seconds of me saying, hey, how are you, to say this is about to happen. I'm really scared.
[00:43:30] like
[00:43:30] Ryan Eves: that level of like vulnerability and connection with this generation, like that's what you talked earlier about, like you can talk to them, you can be real with them. That is the most rewarding thing of, to be. Have the privilege of being in their lives, in a way that you're not a boss.
[00:43:49] Courtney: You're not just a boss.
[00:43:50] Ryan Eves: You're not just a boss, and you're not a boss in the way that we would've thought about it or the, I know the way that I thought about it as somebody who needed to be kept at a distance because [00:44:00] that was their position, or you know, something.
[00:44:03] But to really be like human to human, a connection. and I think that, you know, at the Y we talk about it as that's leadership.
[00:44:13] It's not about your position or the, role that you play in the organization, but everybody can be a leader at some point. And so getting to be a leader and to be led by them, I think is the greatest thing that I've gotten out of it, is to just see that these kids that have grown up at camp, who have been changed by the positive experiences that they've had, are now willing to say yes to hard things, um. To put themselves in challenging situations and grow and to continue to get to watch that.
[00:44:49] Ryan Eves: And that's one story. But I can walkthrough 200 more, of, you know, young people who grew a lot in, one summer or two [00:45:00] summers or more, sometimes even less. And you stay, you get to be in touch with them.
[00:45:05] and some of that is the nature of camp, but I think that's another thing that organizations can learn from is the relationships with your employees. If they're disposable, then, that's how you'll treat them.
[00:45:19] they'll be gone
[00:45:20] Ryan Eves: and you'll keep up with them or value them for the contributions they're making beyond that. But if they're contributors to what your organization has been about, and you can stay with them and keep them engaged, then whether they ever come back or really isn't the point. It's engagement that you've got with them and the difference that they're going to make long term.
[00:45:48] Dana: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:50] Ryan Eves: that matters.
[00:45:51] Dana: Yeah. Yeah. Well that I love it. I know. Well, thank you so much for your time today.
[00:45:56] Ryan Eves: Yeah, thank you for having me
[00:45:57] Dana: This has been wonderful. Yeah. [00:46:00]
[00:46:00] Courtney: Appreciate it and we'll, we'll see you this summer.
[00:46:01] Dana: I know
[00:46:02] Courtney: See you at camp.
[00:46:03] Yeah.
[00:46:04] Dana: See you at camp. We will be there, with bells on.