Dana - 00:00:00:

The failure is not always business-based. It can be emotional-based, right? It could be the inability to be creative. How do you measure creativity success? And I think you can, but those are really hard things to off the cuff say, like, you know what? I feel like you're failing because you're no longer creative. Welcome to Hustle & Gather, a podcast about inspiring the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I'm Dana.

Courtney - 00:00:33:

And I'm Courtney.

Dana - 00:00:34:

And we are two sisters who have started multiple businesses together. And yes, it is as messy as you think, because we know that starting a business isn't easy.

Courtney - 00:00:42:

We've done it four times. And on this show, we talk about the ups and downs of the hustle and the reward at the end of the journey.

Dana - 00:00:47:

And this season, we're talking all about the messy middle.

Courtney - 00:00:50:

You know, when you have to decide to either grow or scale your business, or maybe even take a step back.

Dana - 00:00:54:

Last week, we talked with Courtney Tarrant about how your mindset keeps you stuck in the messy middle.

Courtney - 00:00:59:

So this week, just the two of us are talking about the lessons we learned from Courtney. And weren't there many?

Dana - 00:01:04:

So many.

Courtney - 00:01:05:

So many lessons.

Dana - 00:01:06:

I think we could have had double of all of them.

Courtney - 00:01:09:

I know.

Dana - 00:01:10:

Each.

Courtney - 00:01:10:

I just feel like she was like the queen of one-liners. I'm like, oh, that was a good line. Oh, that was a good line, too.

Dana - 00:01:16:

Yeah. I think she just had like such a great like approach to life. In general? Which I don't-

Courtney - 00:01:24:

She's clearly in the middle for eat, pray, love era.

Dana - 00:01:26:

Yeah, but I know. But I mean, it sounds like just even how she started her business and the relationship with her partner. Like, I just feel like she probably, that's just how she lives her life.

Courtney - 00:01:35:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:01:35:

Very like intentional.

Courtney - 00:01:37:

Yeah, it sounds like that.

Dana - 00:01:38:

I love.

Courtney - 00:01:39:

I do love that too. All right. Well, so many takeaways. I felt like you could have your pick. We could talk about the whole episode all over again.

Dana - 00:01:47:

Yeah. What was your favorite overall?

Courtney - 00:01:49:

Overall, my favorite overall is kind of near the beginning. She said, presence is a privilege. Isn't that the truth? I mean, like literally, I was like, oh. Presence is a privilege. It's so true. I can think about it from all the different angles. Like when I, who was I talking to? I can't remember who I was speaking to. I was speaking about my divorce and all of that. And I was like, you know. There's lots of times that I'm very thankful for all that past Courtney did to help promote where, like, current Courtney is today and that most people's divorce story. Doesn't go this way and how grateful I am to be able to like, pivot and change and still be productive but also be present, like, with my kids and whatnot and be able to, like, really navigate those transitions. So I think I could totally, like, overall, I feel like that is. To me, that is probably one of my tenets of being a business is to be able to be present in my life. It is important for me that my work facilitates a presence that would not be there if I were to have kept teaching or something like that. You know what I mean?

Dana - 00:02:55:

I thought it was totally spot on. I think I've always realized that presence is a privilege. But what I feel like, like presence, I knew always being able to stay home with the kids and being able to pick them up from school and go to the games.

Courtney - 00:03:09:

Sure.

Dana - 00:03:09:

You know, because when I was teaching, I saw how much I wasn't able to do that. When I saw Sam working, you know, like commuting and whatnot, and at the beginning of his career, he wasn't able to do all that. So, like, I always recognized that piece of it. But I think what was super interesting, and it really made me think about it, is being present in the moment overall where you are in your life. Like, recognizing, you know, wow, I got here. You know? Like, I thought that was a really powerful thing for me. Because I do struggle with that a little bit. Of like, kind of thinking, okay, what's the next step? What's the next thing? Like, not that you wish away time. Like, I especially do not wish away time at this point in my life. But like.

Courtney - 00:03:46:

Like, time could pause right now. I'd be fine.

Dana - 00:03:48:

Yeah. You know, but it was, it's just being present for where you are and celebrating where you are, even if where you are is hard, even if where you are is like, you know, you have a lot of problems and you have a lot of struggles, but still celebrating that you're still here.

Courtney - 00:04:02:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:04:03:

And there's still a lot of good that's happening around it. Like that kind of presence, you know, that was really powerful.

Courtney - 00:04:09:

Yeah, I think like plopping it, whether you're talking about your home presence, whether you're talking about your work presence, whether you're talking about your self-presence, whatever it happens to be, like being able to be present in those different spots of your life and identity.

Dana - 00:04:20:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:04:20:

Like no matter what that looks like.

Dana - 00:04:22:

Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was great.

Courtney - 00:04:23:

For sure. I thought it was so good.

Dana - 00:04:25:

Yeah. My favorite overall was when she said, it was from her mentor, when they said, when you're in hell, don't sightsee. I know. It's like so spot on.

Courtney - 00:04:36:

Yeah. So true.

Dana - 00:04:38:

It is. And I think it's so hard. Like. I think for me, it's hard because I'm not confident I know why I'm in hell.

Courtney - 00:04:45:

Yeah, that's true.

Dana - 00:04:46:

So I'm like sightseeing, trying to figure out like, how did I get here? What's the reasoning for it? And it's kind of like, no, no, like just get out of it. And then like-

Courtney - 00:04:54:

We can discuss that later. Yeah.

Dana - 00:04:55:

Yeah. Like figure out how to get out of the moment, out of what is like causing you hell. And I think that there is a, it's easier said than done first off for sure. But like, I think it's interesting to think through it in like lots of areas of your life. It's not just business necessarily.

Courtney - 00:05:10:

Relationships.

Dana - 00:05:10:

It's relationships. It's- like your own personal like feelings about like yourself or whatever, like whatever it is, like don't just stay in it and wallow in it and like figure out, like walk around and be like, Oh, what's behind this door. But like, just get out of it.

Courtney - 00:05:26:

I know. I know. Like, where was that when I was married?

Dana - 00:05:29:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:05:30:

Where's that information?

Dana - 00:05:31:

You weren't ready to hear it, so it wouldn't matter.

Courtney - 00:05:32:

I'm just saying. It's so true, though. There's a lot of sightseeing.

Dana - 00:05:37:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:05:37:

Cooking over rocks.

Dana - 00:05:38:

Mm-hmm.

Courtney - 00:05:39:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:05:40:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:05:40:

No, I totally agree. I mean, in some way, like, I personally practice that a lot, like, with my... Like. Self-care type. Personal thing. Like if I'm feeling bad, like my first thought is to do. I'll get out my yoga mat. I'll get out my journal. I'm like, let's work through this. Let's get to the other side. I don't ever want to stay in that negative space. And it's through, to me, working that out that I have reflection on why I'm even there. But it never comes to me first as to why am I here. Because I have no idea all the time. It's the reflection of it.

Dana - 00:06:11:

I don't really know why I'm there.

Courtney - 00:06:12:

Oh, really?

Dana - 00:06:13:

I've always been a super introspective person. I think for me, like I have a hard time getting out of it. And it's not like a self-loathing thing. It's not like, oh, I don't deserve it. It's like, I don't have the freedom to. Like sometimes when I'm in my own personal hell, it's like, well, I've created this fucking mess. And I got to see it through. I got to get through it. I got to figure out how to get to the other side of it. And I think that there's... I'm not saying it's correct, to be clear. It's not the correct way to think about it. But there's definitely moments where I think through, like, okay, like... Maybe I don't know how to get out of it or I want to see whatever it is to get to the end of it. But I can tell myself, like, you don't have the freedom to do that. Like, what you need to do is, like, you don't need to go take a bubble bath right now and, like, calm down. You need to, like, get on your computer and work till 11 p.m. And get to the other side of it because you're not going to sleep tonight. You know what I mean? And that's my sightseeing in hell. It's, like, consistently getting stuck in the moment of trying to fix a problem. Well, I know I can't even fix it at that moment, but I'm just trying to make it better because it's, like, who else is going to do it? No one else is going to do it. And it's the same thing in any other, like, relationships that I have. Like, even, like, when you talk about, like, when you're, like, me and Sam are fighting or something, it's, like, well, just got to suck it up and deal with it. Like, nothing's going to fix it, you know? And I think it's a very, like, martyrdom attitude. That I've survived in for 98% of my life.

Courtney - 00:07:40:

Yeah, but I think sometimes when you get into it and you kind of take a beat to pause, some of the best ideas and solutions come to you. When I get super emotionally charged, it's static. Everything's just like shh in my head. I can't even think through the next thing. It's like I have to calm that static down to be able to like. Start having clear paths and clear thoughts again.

Dana - 00:08:03:

Yeah, I don't have that problem.

Courtney - 00:08:03:

Oh, well. I do. So I get like emotional, like overwhelm.

Dana - 00:08:09:

I do get emotionally overwhelmed. Like I was trying to, I was working on something the other night and I had started right after dinner at, so like at seven o'clock and it was like nine o'clock and it had taken me two hours to get it to this point. Now, granted a lot of the time was like formatting and like trying something and you know, like just trying to figure, like trying to put the puzzle together. Once I figured out how to put the puzzle together, I could do it more quickly. So I get to it and I remember the computer was lagging. I told Sam, I was like, I can't hit save. If I hit save, it goes live and I'm not ready for it to go live. So I've been like working on this and said, I just know it's going to crash. And not even a second later, the damn thing crashes. And I was like, fuck. So I like lost two and a half hours worth of work. Literally and Stan looked at me and I was like I think I'm gonna cry like I'm so like frustrated and he's like well just you know do it tomorrow I was like I don't have time to do it tomorrow like I'm looking at my schedule I don't have time to do it tomorrow I just got to do it so it's like I had a little emotional moment and then I opened it back up and I did it again and then I did it again although I had only worked on it for like 45 minutes at that point and then finally the third time it worked but I was like oh my god, Like-

Courtney - 00:09:12:

Yeah. Were you drinking at this point?

Dana - 00:09:14:

No, I was not. We don't drink during the week.

Courtney - 00:09:18:

I'm just saying that would have put me to that, like I'm having a glass of wine.

Dana - 00:09:21:

We don't even have alcohol in the house unless we have a ton of champagne and it's not good warm.

Courtney - 00:09:25:

That's fair. It's not.

Dana - 00:09:26:

We don't even buy it until the weekend.

Courtney - 00:09:28:

Okay, nice.

Dana - 00:09:29:

Just as a general rule. But anyways, all that to say, yeah. But I think it was really helpful to like... Recognize that just because you get out of hell doesn't mean you're not, not solving a problem. You're just getting out of like the thing that's burning, like literally burning right now.

Courtney - 00:09:46:

For sure.

Dana - 00:09:46:

Yeah. That was great.

Courtney - 00:09:48:

What was your favorite business point takeaway?

Dana - 00:09:55:

Yeah. I thought this because I actually have felt this, and I have said this before, and I felt like it was really validating, is that what got us here won't necessarily get us there. And I think I wrote about it actually in like one of the newsletters about like letting go. I think it was the conversation with Casey. But it's really hard to look at something that was so successful and that worked a certain way or with a certain person or a certain process. And recognize, well, that got us here. And then just assuming that if you stay the course, it still will work. But it's okay to say, you know what? That got us here, and I'm like so grateful for it. But it's not going to get us to the next step. In fact, it's going to be what is pulling us down and dragging us down to the bottom and saying that's okay.

Courtney - 00:10:45:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:10:46:

It's very hard.

Courtney - 00:10:47:

Yeah, I feel like business economy and like with social media and like online and like how technology is constantly changing, like it is constantly like a moving target. Like it's just not the same as it used to be. Do you know what I'm saying?

Dana - 00:11:00:

Well, yeah. I mean, for sure marketing is like, you know, there's no iterations of that every other month for sure.

Courtney - 00:11:05:

But the person who wins is the person who markets the best, right, at this point. It's like really what it is. Like there's so much emphasis. Like that's like the beginning part of everybody's funnel at this point, you know, unless, I don't know, you create storage systems for big enterprises. I don't know. There's no marketing for that. I don't ever see it.

Dana - 00:11:24:

But you just don't know you see it.

Courtney - 00:11:27:

I don't know I see it. They're not marketing me.

Dana - 00:11:28:

We were watching the show, The Three-Body Problem, and Sam's like, look, there's Dell. There's Dell. There's Dell. There's Dell.

Courtney - 00:11:37:

Oh, like in the show?

Dana - 00:11:38:

In the show. Like they have, like that's how they advertise.

Courtney - 00:11:42:

Supplementally?

Dana - 00:11:42:

If you go through all the Tony, the Iron Man, and Dell's all over it.

Courtney - 00:11:47:

Oh, really? Interesting.

Dana - 00:11:48:

It's EMC.

Courtney - 00:11:49:

Okay. Nice.

Dana - 00:11:51:

Yeah. So there's like stuff like that. Like if you actually watch the shows, like that one like show with Anne Hathaway and that famous singer, Into You or something like that.

Courtney - 00:12:01:

Okay. I don't know what you're talking about.

Dana - 00:12:03:

Like the rom-com. I thought you watched it.

Courtney - 00:12:06:

I did. Yes. She's older.

Dana - 00:12:08:

Yes.

Courtney - 00:12:08:

And he's younger.

Dana - 00:12:09:

Yes.

Courtney - 00:12:10:

I can't remember what it's called.

Dana - 00:12:11:

There's product placement all over that. Like there's a CarMax.

Courtney - 00:12:13:

The idea of you. Okay.

Dana - 00:12:15:

There's like a CarMax thing.

Speaker 1 - 00:12:18:

The Barbie movie is a Chevy.

Dana - 00:12:20:

Yes.

Courtney - 00:12:20:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:12:21:

It's all over. You just don't. It is more subliminal.

Courtney - 00:12:24:

Yeah. I think it's like constantly changing. So those things that got you to where you are. Over years, it just changes. You have to move the market. And people are changing. The way that people want to work, we've said this so many times, and just coming to the realization of the way that people want to work, the emphasis on that business-life balance that is so important to this generation of workers. It changes how you do things. You have to structure it differently.

Dana - 00:12:49:

Yeah, and I think that it's not, when I was thinking about it, because I have felt the marketing thing forever, because it does always feel like we're a step behind. And I think it's because we think that, oh, we did this before, it's going to work, and we're recognizing it's not going to work. But what I was really thinking about when she was talking about it was actual business models, like how we've modeled our business in the past, or positions we had, or employees that we had. Even though that employee was amazing and worked so well for X amount of years, and it got us to where we are, it doesn't mean that that employee is going to get us to the next step.

Courtney - 00:13:24:

Sure.

Dana - 00:13:24:

Sometimes it's okay to look at it and say, you know what, you got us here and we're so grateful for it, but there isn't a future, because you're not what we need to get to the next level. And I think that's where you have to be really honest. And the thing that I really liked about Courtney was her candor in a lot of ways, and how she was so confident in how she talked about things, and even how she recognized. This is hard, this is heavy. Employing people is hard and heavy, but you can't, it is what it is. It's just business at that point. But it was this weird thing, she wasn't cold and unfeeling about it. You could tell she had a lot of feeling and emotion about it, but she was so straightforward in it. You know what I mean?

Courtney - 00:14:06:

Oh yeah, which I think really, to me, segues well into my business point, which is give them their power back. Sometimes as entrepreneurs, or bosses in general, you feel like you hold all the power, and you're like this big hand with these people, that you could just squish them. And that is actually not the case. We are all actually capable human beings. We all actually come to work on our own fruition, or don't come to work on our own fruition. There are plenty of opportunities out there for everybody, and because they're there, they're choosing to be there. And because you're there, you're choosing to be there. And because you're choosing to employ them. There's all of that. That's why. I thought that was a really helpful way to take a little bit of the burden of being responsible for what you feel like is somebody's livelihood, is that they're there too. Give them their power back. And I was talking to Sean at some point in the middle of all of our... Things have been going on the last couple months, and he said, just randomly in a conversation, he's like, every day is a job interview. And I was like, you know what? That's right. That's true. As an employee, every day is a job interview. People get in the mindset of it's here, they're locked in, they've always employed me, so they're always going to employ me. He's like, but really, if you really think about it, every day is a job interview. They should be showing up. You want to keep that job or you have to earn that job.

Dana - 00:15:30:

Yeah. What I found to be so interesting about the conversation in general is I feel like there's some things we do really well and there's some things we do really terribly. And I think about her approach as an employer. It was very much our approach as an employer, but it's not anymore. It's like we've lost a lot of that. Like we've lost a lot of it to be truthful because there's been, and I think what it really, what it comes down to is it's. I don't feel like we have the flexibility of the team necessarily. And when I think about what she's talking about, like the mountaintops, right? We definitely, with this current team, we have reached a mountaintop at some point. And now we're really in a valley. And we're in a valley because we are really trying to strategically grow and change not only the culture of the company, but what it is that we do, what it is that we stand for. We're really, really talking about those core values and having those really hard conversations. And right now in that valley, what we need is we need team unity and we need team time. We need to be together as a team. We need to knock out some things. We need to do the hard stuff. And that means that when we were on that mountaintop and they had all the flexibility in the world to work here, work there, or everywhere, that's not there. And the problem happens is that they don't know how to go from the mountaintop to the valley back to the mountaintop. And you can say, hey, we're here right now. And this is not forever. But this is what we need. As leaders in the company, this is what we see that we need. And because there's resistance, it feels then like you are, I don't know, being this hard ass about it. And you're saying, I want to count your time. Or I don't trust you. And it's like, no, I need you to recognize that this is a situation and a moment where we need the flexibility of being able to do that. But it's been so hard because we've had a lot of conversations. And I know we've had a lot of conversations between me and Amanda. And you can hear the desperation in the conversations that we have of like, I don't know. Feeling like whether it's being taken advantage of or feeling like taken for granted. And, and it's really hard to push those feelings aside and look at it from a productivity standpoint, look at it like, you know, and so then you're, you have that and you're marrying it. It's like, well, we're not actually hitting our goals. And it's like, okay, well, if not hitting our goals, like where's the failure? Is it the personal failure? Is it the leadership failure? Is it the, the knowledge gap failure? Like there's so many pieces to it. So I, and I, I loved her idea of radical transparency. It is so unbelievably scary with this group of people. I don't think I could be that transparent.

Courtney - 00:18:14:

I think too, but I think also one of the differences is like her, she has a lot of turnover on the team. Like you'd hear when she talked about it, she said someone who's been with her for a long time, almost three years or three and a half years.

Dana - 00:18:25:

Well, it's only three and a half years old. The first company, the company she's in.

Courtney - 00:18:29:

But I'm saying, I think that it gets harder to do when you've had employees that have been there five years, six years, seven years, and they've had this like way. And you're kind of. And I don't want to say I've lost enthusiasm, but it's like I think there's something about. There's something refreshing about turnover in a way that allows you to kind of reinvent and be like, oh, that didn't work. Let me try this. And that didn't work. And to refine what it is that your system is and what works for you that you don't have when you have kind of like legacy type employees, if that makes sense.

Dana - 00:19:02:

Right. But I think you could have legacy employees and still have those iterations because I see companies that have that. And they have people from the very beginning that have been together with them for like nine, ten years, right?

Courtney - 00:19:13:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:19:13:

And the difference is from the very beginning, there was flexibility. From the very beginning, there was conversation and there were changes and it wasn't like this is how it's going to be. Do you know what I mean? And so when you're like, this is how it's going to be. And they're like, wait a minute. We want to be like transparent and we want to be flexible. We want you to do this. You know what I mean? Like, I think that is where you're like, okay, well, it's not that the person isn't working out. It's not that maybe they've lost passion or it's not that they whatever. It's like they've lost the gig because it's not what they signed up for.

Courtney - 00:19:43:

Mm hmm.

Dana - 00:19:44:

At the end of the day. And, you know, like I said before, it's like the loyalty of it. Like they're so loyal and they do actually love their job, but maybe they don't love like. The requirement of the job.

Courtney - 00:19:54:

Right.

Dana - 00:19:54:

You know?

Courtney - 00:19:55:

Different aspects of it.

Dana - 00:19:56:

Right. So I think that's just hard. And there's no other way to look at it other than a sheer and utter leadership failure.

Courtney - 00:20:04:

Well, I love how she said one of the things is radical transparency takes radical accountability and responsibility. And I think that there is a skill to holding people accountable. There is a skill towards confrontation, that being able to sit in that uncomfortable space and hold that person accountable. I didn't have. Like, it wasn't, like, in my nature growing up. But, like, I've, you know, and I still don't 100% have it, but that I am growing towards that, you know, confrontation or conflict isn't necessarily bad, right? Like, holding somebody accountable isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I think that from our business journey and, like, our personal journey, like, that. You know and I think-

Dana - 00:20:53:

Yeah, but I think the reason why like we have a hard time with this because we well we can only internally think about like how would I feel when I hear yes yes yes and that's not really what it's about I know and I think and I think for for me I don't I don't really have a problem holding people accountable or like being responsible or like calling them out on something I think I always struggle with like I don't know what to call them out on because I don't actually know what the actual goal is and that was the biggest thing that we changed this year was like there were some markers you could have like you have a sales goal you have a percentage you're trying to hit here but it was such rudimentary things right and and even from our perspective right like when we're when you talk about radical transparency and you're talking about quarterly meetings and we're looking at sales like what do our expenses look like how are we as leaders making sure that we are not yeah like spending our money away, you know? Like, and I think that is super powerful, like to say like, okay, like you have this job and we have this job. And it really wasn't until this year that like every single process that somebody has, has a metric tied to it that says, this is how you know you're successful. And so when you're pulling it up and you're like, well, your metric says you're successful, but I don't feel you're successful. And then it's like, well, we need to change the metrics.

Courtney - 00:22:05:

Right.

Dana - 00:22:05:

Right. Like, and maybe it was incorrectly, an incorrect goal or whatever the case may be like. And so there's a lot of feedback with that necessarily, but I feel what I think was so hard sometimes, and especially how I feel like in our business is the failure is not always business-based. It's, is, it can be emotional based, right? It could be the inability to be creative. How do you success? How do you like measure creativity success?

Courtney - 00:22:33:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:22:34:

And I think you can, but those are, those are really hard things to like off the cuff say like, you know what? I feel like you're failing because you're no longer creative. Well, how do you like, where's the proof? You know what I mean? Like what they find creative may not be what you find creative. So like, it's really thinking through it and like putting, putting in those, I guess, success markers to be able to do it.

Courtney - 00:22:56:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dana - 00:22:58:

I don't know. I really think I said to her, I think about this conversation for like days, days and days.

Courtney - 00:23:04:

I thought it was so good. I was actually talking to Amanda yesterday, and she was talking about our 10-year party and, like, um, showcase or whatnot. And she's like, I don't know. I don't think I can give it up. And I was like, what?

Dana - 00:23:19:

Yeah, what up?

Courtney - 00:23:20:

Planning it, like doing it. I was like, you should have a planner do that and just enjoy the party. You've been part of the 10 years, right? Like don't be the one that's behind the scenes. And she's like, yeah. She's like, I'm thinking this is between my brunch and going to the office. And she's like, when we get to the office, I was thinking about that. She's like, but then maybe I just want to do the gala every year. She's like, I loved it. Like I loved being able to like flex my muscles that way. It's like I'm not ready to not be creative, right? She's like, I feel like I'm not done with that. But it was taking the emotional piece, not dealing with clients, that she said, I think it's the piece that I'm missing. Like I loved dealing with someone that wasn't emotional about the outcome of the event. Besides like obviously raising money, she said, but it was like it made me realize like I could do it. She's like, I still really did need that like creative aspect. So I definitely think like within the role, like it would. It would be a hard metric to say because it felt very creative. I was like, I think there should always be a flower tunnel when you walk onto The Bradford. Like, this felt very creative. Like, I could see walking into a wedding this way. Like, brides should split flower tunnels over the weekend. Like, one-third, one-third, one-third, you know? But yeah, she's like, yeah, everyone needs a $10,000 flower tunnel. Of course, of course they do. But it's interesting. I think that creativity for us in general is what I'm saying is part of it. Like, because it's a visual thing.

Dana - 00:24:38:

It has to be. There is. And I think that that is where you have to put it in. Like, okay, we can talk about the numbers and the dollars and the cents and, like, the percentages. But, like. When you're talking about people and you're talking about events, there has to be a level of creativity. And, you know, and even when you think about it from like, okay, let's just take out the event side of it. To me, every job, and she said it, I can't remember if she was talking about how they had to be ambassadors for themselves. Like she's like, when she talked about the skills, so like two years ago, she was great at a skill and then she hasn't flexed those muscles. She hasn't done it. So she no longer is great at that skill. So she no longer can advise the team. They had to kind of create their own advisory. Like that's when you look at it from a perspective of not a like, like wedding industry, whatever position that is necessary. That's creativity.

Courtney - 00:25:22:

Yeah, it is.

Dana - 00:25:23:

Is figuring out how to utilize your resources and, and think outside the box to change the outcome that you're trying to change. And I feel like that is a hundred percent where you can see when you see the team struggling, you lose all of that.

Courtney - 00:25:39:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:25:40:

And that's how I felt like, you know, six months ago, like when we had these conversations, like nobody's like even trying to do anything. No one's even like. Talking about it. Like, it's just like, okay. Like it's like, there's, there's, they're present. They're sitting at a chair with a notepad and a pen and saying, tell me what to do. And I'm like, I don't even know what to do. I haven't. I'm not in it. I mean, I haven't talked to a client unless they're like pissing me off and like won't pay a bill or I haven't been at a wedding unless like it's a problem. It's a, again, another client problem, or you need a break. And then normally you give me somebody who's like, it's the easiest wedding in the world. Like, so I don't have the muscles to tell you how to do it. Like you guys have to talk to each other about how to do it, you know? And I thought that was like really powerful to be like, okay, that is really the lack of what's happening.

Courtney - 00:26:26:

Yeah, like she was saying that they basically form their own advisory groups on that process. Right.

Dana - 00:26:30:

Right. Instead of looking for us to always make the process.

Courtney - 00:26:33:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:26:33:

Because we can't make the process anymore because we're not doing it.

Courtney - 00:26:36:

Correct.

Dana - 00:26:37:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:26:38:

That was great.

Dana - 00:26:39:

What was your personal?

Courtney - 00:26:41:

New problems, new growth.

Dana - 00:26:44:

Mm.

Courtney - 00:26:44:

So much I thought, I mean, obviously that could pertain to all of it, but like kind of reframing. When you're up against a problem, one, it means that you worked through your old problems, right? You're not still living in the same problem. And I've been there, done that, and I don't love it. There's like a lot of self-loathing involved in that. So like when you're having new problems and new things that you have to solve and new hurdles to cross, it means that you're growing. And I really just kind of liked the perspective of that.

Dana - 00:27:11:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Courtney - 00:27:12:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:27:13:

I thought there was like this old saying, like, even in relationships, when you stop fighting, then the relationship's dead because there's nothing worth fighting for.

Courtney - 00:27:22:

Yeah, for sure.

Dana - 00:27:22:

Like, yeah.

Courtney - 00:27:23:

I can. That makes sense. Like, it doesn't matter what you do. Like, I'm not going to respond to you.

Dana - 00:27:28:

Right.

Courtney - 00:27:28:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:27:29:

Mm-hmm.

Courtney - 00:27:30:

I agree with that.

Dana - 00:27:32:

Yeah, my personal was, I loved how she said, the rocket ship to personal development is entrepreneurship.

Courtney - 00:27:37:

I know.

Dana - 00:27:38:

I feel that very deeply.

Courtney - 00:27:40:

It shows you a lot about yourself, I think.

Dana - 00:27:43:

Yeah, I think it really pushes you outside of your comfort zone, for sure. So what is one thing you feel like entrepreneurship has given you in terms of personal development? There's been lots of things, but like maybe your biggest thing.

Courtney - 00:27:56:

I think it's really been a boon towards like my optimism, like the ability to see something hard and not get stuck in the hardness of it. Persistently stay at it. Knowing that there is an outcome, like it's going to be okay, if that makes sense. And it's interesting, like, one, I'm just Courtney, but it's interesting, like, in the dating world as I've gotten to know people. Like how they see you or whatnot, and like their perception of you. And like Sean says, like you are like an incredibly energetic person. I'm like, why do I feel energetic at all? Like I just don't see myself. He's like, but your ability to like do and be and get things done, like just efficiency-wise. I'm like, oh, well, I am very non-phased by small things. Things, like big emotional things. You know, upend my apple cart. So I'm going to be working on that. But like small little like things like hitches along the way, like they don't faze me. Like it just, I just keep pivoting and moving around. And I think entrepreneurship has taught me that there's always going to be something and you're always going to move around it. So you can't get hung up on that.

Dana - 00:29:03:

Yeah. That's a good one.

Courtney - 00:29:06:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:29:06:

It's a good skill in life.

Courtney - 00:29:07:

Yeah. What about you?

Dana - 00:29:09:

Um. A good one. I don't know. I mean, I feel like my biggest, my biggest thing has been like the, uh, probably just like interpersonal, like relationships with people. Like, I feel like I've really figured out how to have hard conversations and to, um, hear people. I think I was a really bad listener for a very long time.

Courtney - 00:29:33:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:29:34:

Um, that concept of you listened to respond instead of listening to hear was very much how I was. And I noticed it a lot. I think it was, it had been like four or five years ago. I was at a networking event and I realized I interrupted people a lot. So I was so excited to say something. And then I was like, that's super. I'd be so annoyed. So then I like consciously try not to interrupt people. I let them finish what they're saying and I listen to what they're saying. And then if I still remember what it was, then I'll say it. And if I don't, I don't. Like, you know, and I feel like it's really created an ability for people to feel like. Like I care because I do really care. And I think before it came across as not. So I don't know. I thought that was, I learned that purely through entrepreneurship and like having to like navigate all the employees and like clients and all that stuff, like being able to do the head of that skill. For sure.

Courtney - 00:30:33:

Think I'm medium on that skill. I feel like my marriage to Mikhail really like wrecked my communication skills in that way because you could not get a word in edgewise if you did not interrupt. Like you have to interject.

Dana - 00:30:43:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:30:44:

And he would just go on and on and on and on.

Dana - 00:30:46:

No, I think you only interject when you're trying to say something funny or sarcastic to add to the conversation.

Courtney - 00:30:53:

Like to create levity to it.

Dana - 00:30:54:

Yeah. Sure.

Courtney - 00:30:56:

Which sometimes goes well and sometimes does not.

Dana - 00:30:58:

Very true.

Courtney - 00:30:58:

Yeah. But I'm willing to roll that dice. Yeah. Yeah. I am. No, that was so good.

Dana - 00:31:05:

Yeah. Well, what do you, so let's talk through like based on everything she talked about.

Courtney - 00:31:09:

Oh my God.

Dana - 00:31:09:

The fuck up of our life.

Courtney - 00:31:12:

I think it went somewhere when I was 18. I don't know. But like she had it all figured out 15 years ago, which for her would be 18. I'm like, oh, I'm going to marry this life with my business and business with my life and really keep it centric on what is purposeful to me. I think I look at her and I'm like, you're not wasting your life. That's how I feel.

Dana - 00:31:32:

I definitely feel like for us, it was very much not early on, not recognizing what the mission of our company was. And I think to be fair, if you would have asked us why we started C&D and then why we started The Bradford in the very beginning, our mission was to be able to be present at home. Like it was to be, it was financial freedom and it was very much to like be present with as a parent, right? Like.

Courtney - 00:32:00:

See, I feel like for me. I just wanted to work with my sister.

Dana - 00:32:02:

Oh. That was your whole mission.

Courtney - 00:32:07:

Yeah, I wanted you to be around.

Dana - 00:32:08:

Oh, well, yeah.

Courtney - 00:32:09:

I wanted to build my life with you.

Dana - 00:32:12:

Yeah, but you were afraid I was going to move away.

Courtney - 00:32:15:

I was very afraid of that.

Dana - 00:32:16:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:32:16:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:32:16:

I didn't. I married the right person who will never move. Oh, I know.

Courtney - 00:32:22:

I know, but I'm saying, I think if I think back on why I built C&D, why we built C&D, is I really felt like we, I wanted. To build our lives together.

Dana - 00:32:33:

I guess C&D for sure. The Bradford to me was very much about financial freedom. And security.

Courtney - 00:32:39:

Yeah, for sure.

Dana - 00:32:40:

I knew I was never going to get there being a teacher.

Courtney - 00:32:42:

I was never going to get there being a planner.

Dana - 00:32:44:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:32:44:

That was crazy.

Dana - 00:32:45:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:32:46:

It's hard to do that as a planner.

Dana - 00:32:47:

It is hard, yeah. But yeah, but I think... Once I felt like The Bradford was there and we really, and I think even, and I said it the other night, I very much remember we were at the foundation stage and we were like, we really want to impact the community with this. I really want to do something. Because I think we both felt that pull of doing something greater than just weddings. But we never communicated that well. I wouldn't say we never communicated. We never communicated it well to our team and said, this is what we stand for.

Courtney - 00:33:20:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:33:20:

Until it became a contentious situation. And we're like, but this is what we stand for. And they're like, oh. Okay, well... I don't understand that based on these things, but you know, whatever, whatever, you know? So I think that's very much where we failed miserably, which is why we educated a lot on creating that mission statement because we're like, this is actually super powerful.

Courtney - 00:33:42:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:33:42:

It's if you do this.

Courtney - 00:33:43:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:33:43:

And it becomes that lighthouse, you know?

Courtney - 00:33:46:

I agree. I mean, I loved her lighthouse. Like for sure.

Dana - 00:33:50:

Oh, I know. It's so true though. I was actually talking to Sam about that because we were talking about the state of the world and how terrible it is.

Courtney - 00:33:57:

Just a normal Tuesday conversation.

Dana - 00:33:59:

Yes. Well, I had posted that. I had just- I'd posted that video. It was like where Trump had put, I hate Taylor Swift. And it's like a clip of her concert saying like, you just need to restore the peace and stop screaming about all the people you hate. And I was like, well, she's not wrong. Well, then I get this comment from one of mom, dad's friends. Like do your research. And I was like, number one, I have done my research. Number two, like there are lots of reasons why I vote, but I was like the biggest thing right now is the state of our school system and the fact that they want to dismantle it and not okay with that. Number three, if I had to choose a room for my daughter to be locked in with our presidential candidate, it's not going to be your guy.

Courtney - 00:34:40:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:34:40:

And I feel like that's a telling conversation to have.

Courtney - 00:34:42:

For sure.

Dana - 00:34:43:

Like of morality and like, what am I showing my children? Like did all that. And I was like, but we can agree to disagree or whatever.

Courtney - 00:34:49:

The founding fathers never believed that there would be a nomination from the country that was a felon. That's why it's not in the Constitution. It's in the Constitution that you cannot vote and steer the direction of our country if you have a felony. But you can be the whole president. And I think in their mind, I'm like, this is a great misstep. Like, they were never envisioning a future where this would actually be a problem. And here we are. Like, literally, here we are.

Dana - 00:35:14:

I know. But the whole point is that we were, so I was telling him about money being in the hands of women. So we're talking about this. And I was like, I can tell you the biggest thing that scares me, it's the schools. It really is the schools. It's just so frustrating. And there's times where I feel really fortunate, like the obviously we were able to send our kid to private school for a couple years and they needed it, that we are at a great high school. I think our county is pretty decent for the most part. Like there's a lot of great resources there. But there are so many places that are not. And when I look at like our old school, Moncure specifically, how downhill it has gone because there isn't funding, because there isn't any oversight to it. And like, it's just crazy. And I said, I can guarantee you, I said, tell you this, like if for some reason public schools go away, I was like, I'm going to open a school. That's exactly what I'm going to do. And he's like, you'd use your money for that? And I was like, absolutely. Absolutely. Because, and it like really, so true that I feel like when you put money in the hands of women, like it doesn't. It does build their communities because I feel like our ability to have empathy and compassion is so much greater as a general species. Not like, you know, stereotyping here. They're very compassionate and empathetic men for sure.

Courtney - 00:36:25:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:36:25:

But as a group, like we are like, we want to take care of everybody around us. So like we're going to figure out how to do that.

Courtney - 00:36:32:

Yeah, our nature is more nurturing.

Dana - 00:36:34:

Yeah. And so for me, it's like, okay, like that's exactly what I would spend all my money on. Like beach house be damned. Like I will like, because I think-

Courtney - 00:36:41:

Or maybe you'll have your school in a beach house.

Dana - 00:36:43:

I know. I'm just saying, but it was just really like, it was like, oh yeah, it's so true. And I never really thought about it. I've never really thought about it until she had said it. It's like, wow, the ripple. And she said something like the ripple effect of women having money in the hands of women is so much greater. And I was like, that's so amazing.

Courtney - 00:37:03:

It's one of the things I've been talking about a little bit with my therapist because I feel like I'm a bit of a transition, kind of like looking for my why. And I've said that. I've said, like, as I've like gone through my journey or whatnot, I've interacted with many like What do you consider, like, powerful, successful women who find themselves in an obligatory relationship very similar to, like, I found myself in? And there's been a couple of people that have gotten separated and divorced. Since talking, like, wow, that was, like, really inspiring. Like, you, like, really kind of helped me think through these things or whatnot, or that it's going to be okay at the other side of it or whatnot. I said, and I actually signed up to get my first 200 yoga hours for this year. That's my 43-year-old goal. I said, there's something about mindfulness and these strong leader women that I feel like that's the future. But creating a community of... Like self-reflective, mindful women that are entrepreneurs and that are leaders. Because I think that we tend to fall. So. Easily and fast into that servant role or facilitating some other's vision, like whether that's in a relationship, whether that's in a business. But I think if you really tap into what it is to be a woman leader, I think it does change the course of so many people's lives.

Dana - 00:38:20:

Yeah, I totally agree.

Courtney - 00:38:22:

I was just talking about that with my therapist yesterday because I also had therapy yesterday.

Dana - 00:38:26:

Nice. Yeah. Very cool.

Courtney - 00:38:28:

Anyway, good talk. It was so good.

Dana - 00:38:31:

Yeah, I think it's a great way to end this season. And it's been so interesting hearing all the different stories of people that are in that messy middle. And it was so timely. I don't think we intended for it to be timely. When we picked this topic, we were just kind of like, yeah, it sounds like a great topic. And then we found ourselves in the middle of it all during the entire season while we've been recording. It's been a season for a long time, actually.

Courtney - 00:38:52:

We have been recording it for a long time. And I feel like we thought that we had the holy grail of getting out of the middle at the beginning of this year. And that was a lie.

Dana - 00:38:59:

It was a lie.

Courtney - 00:38:59:

Total lie. That did not happen. So, yeah, I feel like we've been able to work through it. And I'd love to hear from people who've listened to this season. Like at this point, if you've gotten to this point in the podcast and you haven't hung up on it or whatever or ended it. What is your messy metal story? Like, I'd love to hear like what point resonated the most with you. Like, and how... You can utilize that to get out of your messy middle. Or you did maybe utilize it to get out of your messy middle. Love to hear. More about our hustles, visit us on the gram @canddevents, @thebradfordnc, @anthem.house, and @hustleandgather. And if you're interested in learning more about our speaking, training, venue consulting, or our conference coming up, head to our website at hustleandgather.com.

Dana - 00:39:47:

And if you love us and you love this show, we'd be more than honored if you left a rating and a review.

Courtney - 00:39:52:

This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I'm Courtney.

Dana - 00:39:55:

And I'm Dana.

Courtney - 00:39:55:

And we'll talk with you next time on Hustle & Gather.