00:00:00 - Dana Kadwell
I feel like there was a lot of fear for us when we got. We were in the messy middle of C and D. I think we made a lot of decisions that were based on, like, scarcity mindset, like, of not being able to, like, employ other people or whatever. And I think that created a lot of dysfunction in the business.

00:00:19 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I think so.

00:00:20 - Dana Kadwell
It became something that grew in a way that was unsustainable and unmanageable, and then all of a sudden, it was like, it imploded. Welcome to Hustle and gather, a podcast about inspiring the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I'm Dana.

00:00:44 - Courtney Hopper
And I'm Courtney.

00:00:45 - Dana Kadwell
And we are two sisters who have started multiple businesses together. And, yes, it is as messy as you think, because we know that starting a business isn't easy.

00:00:52 - Courtney Hopper
We've done it four times, and on this show, we talk about the ups and downs of the hustle and the reward at the end of the journey.

00:00:57 - Dana Kadwell
And this season, we're talking all about the messy middle, you know, when you.

00:01:01 - Courtney Hopper
Have to decide to either grow or scale your business or maybe even take a step back.

00:01:05 - Dana Kadwell
Last week, we talked with Jackie Coffey about making those really big decisions, even when you're just a little bit afraid.

00:01:11 - Courtney Hopper
So this week, the two of us are talking about the lessons we learned from Jackie. That was really good.

00:01:16 - Dana Kadwell
That was really fun.

00:01:16 - Courtney Hopper
I had no idea what direction that was going to go, actually. Like, honestly, when I said we didn't ask one question from this sheet.

00:01:22 - Dana Kadwell
I know, I know. But it's good. Those are the best kind of interviews that when they're just more natural and really into kind of who they are, but so much energy.

00:01:30 - Courtney Hopper
Yes. She does have a lot of energy.

00:01:31 - Dana Kadwell
I know.

00:01:32 - Courtney Hopper
I was thinking that, what is she taking? What is she drinking? Yeah, I need some of that.

00:01:36 - Dana Kadwell
I loved her whole story. Like, very much like an underdog story, you know?

00:01:41 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:01:42 - Dana Kadwell
Like, just taking. It's one of those things. You hear about it often. Like, with this inspiration, I can see why she's, like a motivational speaker, like, of where they started and how they kind of, against all odds, were successful.

00:01:55 - Courtney Hopper
I was not expecting the turn that her origin story took when she was talking about this house and how her stepdad or whatever at that time was a heroin drug lord.

00:02:04 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I know.

00:02:04 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. I was like, wow, that's shocking. I didn't see where this is gonna go.

00:02:07 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:02:08 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:02:09 - Dana Kadwell
Yes. But, I mean, it just basically started a lifelong feeling of insecurity, of.

00:02:14 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Trying to combat that. Like, the housing insecurity, I guess.

00:02:18 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:02:18 - Courtney Hopper
Which is true for so many people I know. Very interesting.

00:02:21 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:02:21 - Courtney Hopper
I was shocked at the direction, though.

00:02:23 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah. And I thought it was great.

00:02:25 - Courtney Hopper
All right. But I follow so many good takeaways.

00:02:27 - Dana Kadwell
So many good takeaways. I'm really glad we had that conversation. Cause I feel like it's a needed conversation that we just don't really talk about a lot.

00:02:35 - Courtney Hopper
You know, that even when you are successful and even when you've made great decisions and even when they've panned out for you, it is still. Fear is always right there when you're making other decisions.

00:02:45 - Dana Kadwell
It's still terrifying. It still is terrifying. So.

00:02:48 - Courtney Hopper
Okay, just jump right in. Let's go with whatever your overall. What was your biggest overall takeaway?

00:02:56 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I think what resonated most with me, and kind of, like, was the theme I felt like, was that fear can be an obstacle, but if you harness it, it is your greatest motivation.

00:03:06 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:03:07 - Dana Kadwell
And I do think that's true. I think that there's a lot of times it's, like, kind of a. Do you want, like, choose your own adventure? Do you want this fear to be an obstacle, like, where you can't get over it? Or maybe you can, but it's just harder because you're constantly thinking about what could go wrong or whatever you're afraid of. Or do you harness that fear and turn it into something that's motivating you?

00:03:31 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I can think of a couple of different things. I've heard it said that your body doesn't differentiate between the feeling of fear and anxiety versus excitement. It's you that determines what it is. Whether you're feeling fear and anxiety or whether you're feeling excitement, it's you that gets to determine that.

00:03:47 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I have a pretty good idea when I'm afraid and when I'm afraid.

00:03:49 - Courtney Hopper
Well, yeah, I mean, I know. Like, you're obvious, right? I know, but your head is. But the way your body responds, like, your, like, biological response, isn't much different between fear and anxiety and excitement. So it's just you putting your label on what it is. Like attaching that mental thing.

00:04:04 - Dana Kadwell
Interesting.

00:04:05 - Courtney Hopper
I know. So, I mean, I kind of think through that, like, some of the most exciting things that we've done have also made me the most afraid. You know, the biggest risks and changes. I think, you know, there's a lot of fear, right?

00:04:19 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I don't think I have a ton of fear. I have a lot of. I think I get more anxious more than anything, but I'm not a naturally anxious person. It's just that some things, they make me anxious, like things that are, you know, next steps or whatever. Fear. The only time I've ever felt genuine, real fear is really related to my own, like, bodily safety or my children's.

00:04:46 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Oh, for sure.

00:04:47 - Dana Kadwell
That's really the only time I have felt genuine, true fear about anything.

00:04:54 - Courtney Hopper
I have some level of claustrophobia when I can't get a ring off my finger or a dress over my head. And then you've had to help me in the dressing room. It's literal fear. My body starts sweating, and it's counterproductive. My body is literally responding in a fear state. Feel like I'm going to get trapped, you know? And I'm curious about that. Like, when I think about, like, some of our big business decisions, like, was it excitement? Was it fear? But I think. I think the point of, like, what she was making was, you can't let that the fact that you have fear be the determiner for if you do something or if you do not do something.

00:05:27 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. So I think that. So it's interesting because when, right after Henry was born, I struggled a lot with, like, some, like, just postpartum depression or whatnot. So I went on a medicine, zoloft or whatever, and I'll talk about this. It's terrible. I hated it. And the doctor, he was like, well, do you feel. Do you feel sad? Do you feel anxious? Like. No, but I said, I don't feel anything, though. And I always say that that period of time, I made the worst decisions of my entire life during that period of time, because I actually felt nothing. Like, I just. I was not fearful. Like, I didn't thoroughly think through things. I was like, oh, that's fine. That'll be fine. That'll be fine. And then there was nothing motivating me to prevent that bad thing from happening or the thing that I thought that it could fail. So, like, you know, you think about on a very, like, easy layman's term, like, right, you're gonna make this decision, but, like, in the back of your mind, you have the fear of, like, oh, my gosh, like, I can fail. So then you're like, but I'm gonna make this decision, and I'm gonna make sure I don't fail. By doing x, y, z, it pushes you. It motivates you to not create that failure. And so when I was on that med, I did none of that. Like, I didn't have a fear in the back of my mind, which means I wasn't pushing forward to what I needed to do, which I just was, like, assuming, like, oh, whatever happens, happens, and then it all failed. So, like, yeah, and so it's interesting, like, I've. I feel like. And I guess it's where I wouldn't necessarily call it, like, a fear, but there is definitely this feeling of, like, huh. I don't really want to fail. I don't want to look stupid. I don't want to, like, mess this up, you know? But I don't ever feel like, okay, if I do fail, like, my life is over. It's going to be terrible. It's going to be awful. I'm just like, oh, I'll be another problem solve, like, right. You know? So I don't know if that's. If that's normal for. That's just how I am. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, but, yeah, but I love the idea of it because I do think it's true. I think that when you're making big decisions and big moves, you have to think of the worst case scenario, what's going to happen, and it helps you prevent that from happening.

00:07:25 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, I do think that.

00:07:26 - Dana Kadwell
Good. Like, planning.

00:07:27 - Courtney Hopper
I know. I was talking about this with my, I was talking about this, actually, in vacation, because I went on vacation with our parents. We went on a cruise, and I booked the pieces. How are we going to get down there and we're going to parents house before. And I booked the cruises, and this is what it's going to look like. And I made sure I knew how to get on the boat and got the boarding passes and all the things, but beyond that, whatever. I remember multiple times my dad telling me that, this is not a Dana vacation. I was like, no, it's not. I was like, there's a scaffolding. Like, the scaffolding's in place, and then whatever happens in the middle is, like, whatever happens in the middle for me, right? Like, I've put the things in place. Like, I thought through all the worst case scenarios, like, how do you get on? Like, what kind of passport or what documentation do I need? How do we park? Like, all those things. But once we're on the boat, we're on the boat, we get off in the Bahamas, we'll decide what we're going to do that day, right. Depending on, we feel like, you know, whatever. So it was not explicitly planned out or whatnot, but I was talking to my therapist about that a little bit, and she was like, well, that's kind of like how you operate your life, Courtney, she's like, you know, you're such an anxious person that you're always thinking through, I want to do x. And you think of the 30 ways that that could go wrong, and then you pick the ones that are the least agreeable to you. And I'm going to prevent it by doing this. I'm going to prevent it from doing this. She's like, and you have your scaffolding always, but then you just operate freely within this scaffolding, you know? And I think for fear, when you think about that or anxiousness or that kind of check, it puts that scaffolding up for you. Hey, I want to prevent this, and I want to prevent this, but anything that happens in the middle, I'm okay with. So I think there is some reality to that, some real self preservation or thought outness. But I think you can't let your fear be so all encompassing, but it doesn't allow you to, like, move freely within the right.

00:09:19 - Dana Kadwell
But there's some people. There's some people that can't do that. Like, when you're talking about, like, a perfectionist, that is. That is not what they. They can't handle that for sure. That's not something that they can handle at all. And so I think that it really speaks to, like, personality wise, like, who you are and, like, what you can tolerate. I think there's very few perfectionists that are entrepreneurs.

00:09:36 - Courtney Hopper
I know. I was gonna say that. I bet you there's not a lot of.

00:09:39 - Dana Kadwell
I don't think there is. Yeah, I think. I think they get seen as called perfectionists because they present, but they're more of an overachiever, because overachievers actually don't care about perfection. They care about looking perfect. But if it is perfect, it doesn't actually matter that much. So they're afraid of a little bit of failure as long as the visual of it is not a failure.

00:09:57 - Courtney Hopper
You're saying they're not afraid of a.

00:09:58 - Dana Kadwell
Little bit of failure as long as, visually they're not.

00:10:00 - Courtney Hopper
Like, the perfectionists are really afraid of.

00:10:02 - Dana Kadwell
Failure in all counts of it. Like, every piece of it, for sure. So. Yeah, but I thought it was good. I thought it was a really great way to think through, like, okay, all the steps that I took in my life and, you know, like, I don't know, put it through that filter of how motivating it was. Not wanting to fail.

00:10:19 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I think that is a big motivator for a lot of people, is not wanting to fail. But also, I think it's while it's a motivator, it also is something that holds a lot of people back, not wanting to fail.

00:10:28 - Dana Kadwell
Sure.

00:10:28 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. So my overall takeaway was kind of when she was talking about that mindset change, and she went through the story of the limbo. The limbo story. Yeah, yeah.

00:10:43 - Dana Kadwell
Such a great example.

00:10:45 - Courtney Hopper
It is.

00:10:45 - Dana Kadwell
But it was just so. But like.

00:10:47 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, yeah.

00:10:50 - Dana Kadwell
I thought it was like, one of those things where, like, I'm listening to my kid tell me something, and you're like, what?

00:10:55 - Courtney Hopper
But it's so interesting, too, because I feel like. Like, not that this has anything to do with that topic, but I feel like growing up in a skating rink was, like, a uniquely eighties experience, for sure, because we grew up in skateboarding all the time.

00:11:05 - Dana Kadwell
I could not do the limbo. I could not skate back.

00:11:07 - Courtney Hopper
Limbo. I'm learning how to skate backwards now. It's terrifying.

00:11:10 - Dana Kadwell
I did not have much work.

00:11:12 - Courtney Hopper
I did not either. I didn't have inline skates.

00:11:14 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, yeah, I did eventually. And we did it. We're totally digressing. But, yeah, no, I thought it was a great story because I feel like it's such a. Every person can think of a moment like that in their childhood. Like, this pivotal moment of. And when you say it out loud as an adult, it sounds so trivial, but it was such a pivotal moment.

00:11:31 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I know.

00:11:32 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Okay, sorry, continue on. I love how.

00:11:34 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Like, how she said basically, like, a mindset changes your superpower. Like, that kind of can't versus how thought, like, yes, I can't. But maybe you didn't. But how could you have given the other another opportunity? And I thought that that was, like, a super great, like, overall takeaway. Is that.

00:11:50 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:11:50 - Courtney Hopper
And I do think that, like, I think. I mean, I can think through, like, many times in our professional career and in my personal life where I was like, I can't. And I was really just kind of, like, giving away my power at that point by saying that I can't. It didn't allow me to affect change. But, like, once you kind of shift your mindset just a little bit to, like, how am I going to work around this? As opposed to I can't, I think is.

00:12:13 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, yeah. I liked how she. Her mom said that anything past 24 hours is just self loathing. Self loathing. That's what it's like.

00:12:23 - Courtney Hopper
Not self loathing, but it was, like, basically amounted to that.

00:12:25 - Dana Kadwell
Yes. I can't remember the word she used, but it was basically like, you have 24 hours. Anything past that is just unacceptable. More or less. What was self loathing?

00:12:35 - Courtney Hopper
Oh. Anything more than a day is just feeling sorry for you, feeling sorry for yourself.

00:12:39 - Dana Kadwell
It is self loathing.

00:12:40 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Which is, like, one of the feelings that I literally cannot stand. Like, I can't.

00:12:44 - Dana Kadwell
Feeling sorry for yourself?

00:12:45 - Courtney Hopper
No, I hate it.

00:12:46 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:12:47 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Like, when I get to the point where it's like, I'm getting to woe as me, or I find myself in an opportunity where I'm like, oh, fuck, right? And I'm looking in the mirror, I'm like, I can't even stand you right now. And then I, like, I've given it. I feel like that point, I've given away my power. And I'm like, you're in this position because you put yourself in this position. I hate feeling sorry for myself.

00:13:05 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:13:05 - Courtney Hopper
Because there's some decision along the way that put me in a position to make me feel sorry for myself, and I don't like it.

00:13:13 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I don't really feel that way ever about myself because I don't like anyone else to feel sorry for me. Like, I don't deal well with, like, sympathy at all, you know? And then there's. There are moments in my life where I feel like I really need that. Like, I need someone to recognize, like, that I'm in pain or that it's okay for me to feel this way. And they're normally big things. Like, you know, like, papa died. Like, I remember thinking that, like, my papa died. And then, like, two weeks later, Sam's dad's aunt died. And they were like, one of. I was like, I don't give a shit. I don't care.

00:13:46 - Courtney Hopper
I think he had more clarity surrounding this conversation.

00:13:49 - Dana Kadwell
It was because he had passed away, right?

00:13:52 - Courtney Hopper
Our grandfather.

00:13:53 - Dana Kadwell
Grandfather had passed away, and they knew how important he was. They didn't say. They didn't call or anything like that. It's such a text about where they could send flowers or something. And I was just like, whatever, I don't care. And then I.

00:14:04 - Courtney Hopper
You're saying his parents texted you about that, right?

00:14:06 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. So then, like, a week, a month or so go by and his, so Sam's great aunt, who he's only met twice in his life, like, I've never met before. Once because the one time I could go, they didn't want me to go, because they wanted Sam to go. Whatever. But anyways, another story, another day. And I knew John was upset about it because this aunt was like a mother to him. And so I reached out to him, and I was like, I'm really sorry. This is happening. Like, you know? But she was, like, 95. I mean, they knew it was not a surprise. They've been waiting a long time for this to happen. Like, you know, and I was, like, we texted back and forth for, like, a solid, like, 1520 minutes about it or whatever, and it just was, like, one of those things where it's, like, I actually. Like. I don't. Like. It's one of those things where it annoyed me because I actually do not care, you know?

00:14:54 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, but.

00:14:55 - Dana Kadwell
Because you didn't show it for me in that way.

00:14:56 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:14:57 - Dana Kadwell
You know what I mean? It would have been nice. Especially you, knowing, like, this is a.

00:15:01 - Courtney Hopper
Pivotal relationship in your life. Right.

00:15:02 - Dana Kadwell
Like, you going through this exact same thing, and there was never, like, even at that same conversation, like, okay, it did happen three weeks a month ago. You can still have a conversation about it now. You know what I mean?

00:15:12 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:15:12 - Dana Kadwell
So there's, like, moments like that where it's, like, it would be nice to have some sympathy and empathy in this situation, but there's very rarely that I want anyone to ever sympathize with me. Like, don't. I don't know. I don't want to be in this place. Like, I don't care. I can get over it. I can suck it up. Just let me do what I need to do, and then, like, you know, move on from it.

00:15:33 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:15:33 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:15:34 - Courtney Hopper
It's a uniquely Dana thing to say.

00:15:35 - Dana Kadwell
Well, I just. I think it's just similar. Like, our. Like, our friend Robin got upset at a conference, and she was like, I hate showing emotion. I was like, I do, too, girl. Like, I understand it, but me and Robin are very similar in that way.

00:15:46 - Courtney Hopper
Just let it out. Everyone has.

00:15:47 - Dana Kadwell
Like. But sometimes you just need to do that, you know? But, yeah, no, I definitely feel that. Like, that. Just that the self loathing part of it. Like, I just don't have the patience for it.

00:15:58 - Courtney Hopper
I feel like, too.

00:15:59 - Dana Kadwell
Like, that's why I'm not a therapist.

00:16:02 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I think. Wow. Could you imagine?

00:16:04 - Dana Kadwell
No.

00:16:05 - Courtney Hopper
No, I cannot. But I think, too, like, when she's talking about it, it reminds me a lot. Just about, like, kind of my marriage journey and divorce. There were times where I literally felt stuck. Like, wow, I am stuck here, right? Like, I am literally stuck in this situation. Like, whether it was, like, financial or the fact that we had, like, a thousand children and. And I'm making these decisions, and it wasn't until my mindset shifted that I was like, I am not stuck. This isn't a cant, but this is how. How am I going to get out of this? Right?

00:16:34 - Dana Kadwell
See, and I do think that. I think I am. I should just back up. I am actually a very empathetic person as we're coming across that way. But I think where I have the empathy is when you can look at somebody and you can recognize that they feel stuck and they can't get out, and you're there and your job there is to, like. Or they need to just go through the emotion. They need to feel it. They need to be sad. They need to be angry. They need to be mad. I'm like, you know, I'm all for that. Like, I will be there for you. You can cry on my shoulder. I'll be mad with you. I'll do all the things right. I cannot take it if it's, like, longer. I mean, longer, 24 hours, but you're talking about, like, months later and they're still fighting the same thing. But there are ways to get out of it. You know what I mean? That's what I'm just like, I can't help you out anymore because you just want to be miserable at this point, is how it feels.

00:17:20 - Courtney Hopper
I still think that goes back to, you probably could never be a therapist.

00:17:23 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, yeah, I know that.

00:17:24 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:17:25 - Dana Kadwell
You're a very good friend, though.

00:17:28 - Courtney Hopper
But I think for me, like, I think is a good segue is this kind of moved into my personal takeaway, which I thought was, like, very similar, which was when you are blaming, like, when you're looking to outside sources for why something failed or for why you're stuck in a situation, it takes away your power.

00:17:45 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:17:46 - Courtney Hopper
And I feel like that, too, kind of go hand in hand to me. Like, that mindset shift of, like, where is my. And that self loathing piece of where is my onus of responsibility here? And if I can't find any responsibility, then am I just subject to what everyone else is doing around me and, like, I cannot handle that.

00:18:05 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:18:05 - Courtney Hopper
You know?

00:18:06 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's a tough one for me because I am very introspective. I don't mind taking ownership for shit. Like, I don't have a. I feel like I can take the shoulder. I can take the blame. Like, I really don't mind doing that. For me, what I have a hard time with is, as I've gotten older, I've struggled with is that I kind of approach my life as the way, like, I can do anything. Like, if I want to do it, I can do it. And there's definitely limitations to what I can do. And so now, as I've grown this business, okay, like, I can do this, but I need your help. Like, I can do this, but I need someone to be able to do this for me, because this is not what I'm good at. I'm not good at this. I'm not good at that. And so then when things fail, like, I can recognize it failed because of me. Right? Like, oh, like, to a point. But then there's part of me, it's like, well, I told you I couldn't do this. Like, I told you this is something that I couldn't handle on my own, and yet it still fails. And there's, like, this anger part of it where I'm like, why did I even, like, go down this path in the first place? Like, why did I even think this is gonna change?

00:19:07 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:19:07 - Dana Kadwell
You know what I mean? Like, there's. And so for me, I struggle with, like, this for so long, I feel like we took so much responsibility for so much failures that it lets people off the hook. Recognizing, like, yes, there is a failure. There is a failure here, there's a failure, whether it's communication, leadership, whatever. But there's also a failure amongst, like, your ability to, like, do your job, you know? Like. You know what I mean?

00:19:30 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Yeah. But I think even then, like, even. Even in that situation, like, when we get into these situations where we've hired someone to do a job and they haven't done the job that we've hired them to do, or, like, they're having, you know, discord amongst the team or whatever, I still come back to. It's still. The onus of responsibility falls on you and I. Right. It still falls on you and I.

00:19:52 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't.

00:19:53 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:19:53 - Dana Kadwell
But I'm also saying, like, it's. We're just a piece of the puzzle, you know what I mean? It may be the top piece, and you can see how it filters down for it, you know? But there's definitely, like, this. It's sometimes. Sometimes I have a hard time deciphering, like. Cause I want to naturally just say it's my fault. It's my fault. Because I just want to take. I just want to take the burden of it and, like, move on. Let's just move on from it, continue on. Right. That sometimes I feel like you take so much ownership that you don't allow people to have ownership.

00:20:19 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:20:19 - Dana Kadwell
Do you know what I mean?

00:20:20 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Like, you're shielding them from their own ownership of it, for sure.

00:20:24 - Dana Kadwell
Yes. Because you don't want them to feel a certain type of way. Yeah.

00:20:28 - Courtney Hopper
But again, it gets kind of back to your fault, I guess, at that point. But, yeah, I do think, and I think I've learned this. You know, in the adult dating world, there is a lot of lack of introspection out there. There's a lot of people who are, like, not self aware, and they can only get by in life by passing the blame on someone else. Like, it does not jive with who they perceive themselves to be, to be able to take ownership for failures.

00:20:53 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's hard to do that, though, especially when the failure is epic.

00:20:58 - Courtney Hopper
I've had some epic failures.

00:20:59 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but, I mean, it's. I think. Yeah, I mean, I think everyone has had epic failures. I think there's some people who have a hard time, like, recognizing the failure, and especially if it's something. Especially if it's a core truth.

00:21:11 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I think we've talked about this before, but, I mean, even, like, okay, it's the point of, like, you're gonna have to follow the story with me for a little bit. Like, when everything, like, obviously did not have a good marriage, wasn't well, like, wasn't well balanced and all of those things. And even when, like, all of that was going badly, I really held on to, like, what a great parent I was. And I actually had this conversation with Krista. Cause, I mean, I think I'm an easy parent. I'm a lazy parent, but I, you know, in a lot of ways. But when all the things were falling down around me, one of the things that I felt like was going the best was, like, parenting at that time. Like, I felt good about my parenting, and I kind of. This is what I was gonna. You know, she needed to believe that. Cause I needed to believe it, right? And I had this conversation with Krista. This is early on, like, we had little. Little kids, toddlers, right? So nothing like it is now. And she's like, I'm telling you, like, all these things that are going wrong, and all you ever come back to me with is, like, basically, it's fine on your end. Like, you're not experiencing any of this. I don't feel like you're in the trenches with me. I feel like it's always. You make me feel like you have this parenting thing unlock, and I'm being so open and vulnerable over all this. And it took a minute. I took a step back, and I was like. And I realized even in that moment, in my early thirties, I was like, it's all I have, though. Krista? This is where it's at for me. Even now, as I'm dating and out and about, talking about interest in my kids. And my kids have been through this very emotional journey. And, like, the way that I allow their free emotional expression, a lot of people disagree with. Right. Or, like, don't feel like that's correct or feel like it's like, yeah, but there's, like, a reason for that. And, like, of course correcting. But honestly, honestly, at the end of the day, like, I'm not winning parent of the year. I've accepted that. Right. And I'm not saying I want to be a bad parent. I'm not even saying I don't think that things are going to change, but I'm like, you know, when I kids right down to it, I said, sometimes I'm just exhausted and I'm tired. And I know I should be choosing a battle, but I'm actively not because I don't have the energy, not because I think it's the best thing at the time. And you know what? That's okay.

00:23:05 - Dana Kadwell
But that's probably how most white people you don't think are introspective. That's their exact same statement to themselves.

00:23:10 - Courtney Hopper
What do you mean about over introspection?

00:23:11 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, like, maybe whatever. This thing that you feel like they're not. They don't have introspection for. It's like, it's the thing they're holding onto. It's the thing that they don't. They don't have the energy to fight, to change to, like, because once you open up a can of worms, when you notice you've been in therapy, once, you realize, wow, I am the problem. And then there's all this work that has to go with, so you're not the problem again, because if you don't, then every single time, you're the problem, you just hate yourself even more. I know I'm the problem, and I can't fix the problem. So it's the same thing. It's the same concept. I do think people are more aware than they let on to be. I think that they just choose to not deal with the situation because they're too tired, they're too exhausted. It's something that they don't know how to fix. Right. They don't know where to move for it. I think it's the same thing.

00:23:53 - Courtney Hopper
Do you? I do, yeah. But, I mean, I'm. Again, like, that's just, like, kind of one of my. Like one of the pieces that I've thought about, like, yeah, I recognize it. And I might be tackling this in my parenting journey, but I don't have the energy to tackle all these, all these things all at one time. Like, I'm fixing this and then I'm fixing this and then I'm fixing this. I think there's a lot of people that in that position would just be like, you know, because of the person that I married and because of the situation. It is what it is and I'm doing the best that I can do and, you know, fuck it. Like, that's it. You know what I mean? And. But I think a lot of people don't take that introspective approach. I don't think.

00:24:27 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:24:27 - Courtney Hopper
In my mind, but anyway, I mean.

00:24:29 - Dana Kadwell
I do think it's rare. I don't think it's, like, a normal thing. And I think that it's. I think it's rare to see it in superficial relationships. I think you probably, like, most people have a close relationship that they are introspective with, or they, for the most part, introspective, but it's hard.

00:24:43 - Courtney Hopper
It's hard to be introspective when it's something that's super personal to you. Like, something like, oh, what kind of a parent am I in being able to say, like, I think I'm excelling in this and this, but, like, I'm certainly failing. And I'm failing partly because I'm tired and exhausted and, like, I know I'm not doing the best.

00:24:57 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:24:57 - Courtney Hopper
You know, like, being able to recognize that I think, and verbalize it, I think is. And I think about in the business capacity, like, hey, like, I recognize that I am failing on these things and I need help and support and I care about it, but, like, I literally can't do it. But a lot of people, it's more. It's fine. I'm fine. Oh, it's their fault. It's their fault. They passed this buck. The ability to verbalize it and recognize it and then be able to ask for help or make change, I think is rare. What was your personal.

00:25:29 - Dana Kadwell
I like that. She said, we seem to be more proud of what we've endured. And I feel like that. I think there's a lot of truth in that. I think it's that kind of a little bit of that martyrdom sense that every person has. It's that one upper. It's like, oh, it's. I always, I'd say all the time, like, there's. The hard part about our industry is, like, that we all, like, to be in collective misery together.

00:25:50 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:25:51 - Dana Kadwell
We can't be in collective happiness. Mm hmm. Because if someone's happy, then you're mad about it and you don't know why, and you're like, well, my life is shit. Like, why is their life so happy? Whatever. And so then. So then you find that cult, that camaraderie, and, like, oh, my God, I had this client. This client. Oh, my gosh, this is hard. This is hard. Like, there's just this standard of collective misery, and you are what you surround yourself with, and so a lot. Like, so one of the talks is, like, how, like, breaking out of that. Like, you. Like, yeah, when it's bad, it can be bad. Be real about it, don't be fake about it. But then also when things are going great, like, be like, oh, my gosh, it's, like, really amazing. And I think that there's this, like, thing where we look at only things that are hard. Like, she's talking about, like, you're proud of what you endured, right? You're proud of, like, the steps and the path and the journey, even though maybe where the end result got a good thing or maybe the end result's a bad thing or whatever. And I feel like it's hard for us to look at that journey in any positive way. You know, there's a lot of feelings of, like, oh, I should have done this, or, man, this was, like, the worst thing, or I was so tired, I was so exhausted, or this was so hard or whatever, and there isn't that pride piece of it. Like, you know, all those things are absolutely true. But, like, wow. Like, look at what I did. Like, look what I accomplished. Like, where I got. I think it's interesting. I think it's, like, a great way to. A great perspective to have on, like, points in your life that you've accomplished.

00:27:16 - Courtney Hopper
I guess I think I personally gain a lot of power through that. Like, when I am faced with something difficult in the present, I can, like, really look back on what I've endured or what our business has endured or what we've been through and be like, okay, that's just. That felt like the mountain. This is a speed bump, right? I think it gives me some perspective.

00:27:36 - Dana Kadwell
Sure.

00:27:37 - Courtney Hopper
And also, I mean, I do. Sometimes I do look back, and I'm like, I would never want to do that. I don't even know how he did that. I could never do that again.

00:27:43 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, for sure.

00:27:44 - Courtney Hopper
But there again, like, put in those positions where it's do or die or you have to do. Oftentimes, people do. Right. It's like having to have to do.

00:27:57 - Dana Kadwell
It, but I think that's where the perspective comes in, because. And you are mine. That was do or die. Some person. It wasn't do or die.

00:28:05 - Courtney Hopper
It always comes back to me whenever we're talking about this, when your friend said to us, I'm so jealous of your journey, like, the fact that you have no money and you're gonna really be able to say, like, you.

00:28:16 - Dana Kadwell
She did not say that, but it was.

00:28:17 - Courtney Hopper
It was like, basically, she had. She was a millionaire at this time, and she was, like, basically saying that she was jealous of the fact that you knew it was gonna be all on you while you were successful.

00:28:25 - Dana Kadwell
That's not what she was saying.

00:28:27 - Courtney Hopper
This one in the loan from her.

00:28:28 - Dana Kadwell
No, she was saying that it was truly ours. Like, we built it with our own two hands, and she was reflecting on that towel, like, other things that she knew. It's just a different type of pride.

00:28:41 - Courtney Hopper
Different, yeah. And, like, the accomplishment or whatnot. All I could hear was like, yes, we do understand that you've inherited your father's business. That is not the same for us. Yes, but in the middle of it, you do. At the time, I was like. I felt like, what a ridiculous comment. Like, tone deaf to the situation. But then coming out of it, I was like, you know what? You're right. There is a big sense of accomplishment and pride and that feeling of, like, wow, we endured this to get to this, that I felt like I owned for a while. It's not necessarily who I am anymore, but for a while, that's what fueled me.

00:29:15 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, no, I mean, I think there is something, like, powerful to say that you built this through two hands, and there is something powerful about it. And, I mean, in the moment, for sure, like. Like, thinking, like, all this hard work, like, is the journey gonna be worth it? Is it gonna pay off? Like, is it gonna be worth it?

00:29:31 - Courtney Hopper
You didn't know.

00:29:32 - Dana Kadwell
No, we didn't know. Um, but I think even by that point, like, I already had felt very proud of what we had built. I had felt very proud of, like, our grassroots wedding planning company. Like, we had no one. No one to help us. We had no connections, nothing. Every person that we came in contact with was because of how good we were at our job is, because we created a great business, you know? And so there was definitely something very. I was very proud of that piece of it, you know? But, yeah, no, I mean, I just think it's one of those things, like, where you. It's a way to approach those moments in your life instead of saying, like, oh, I got through this. It's like, wow, I'm, like, really proud that I got through it, how I got through it, what I accomplished through it, whatever, you know?

00:30:16 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:30:17 - Dana Kadwell
Because there's definitely, like, a pride. A proud. Like, a pride thing for me. Like, I don't have those feelings of, like, I can feel, like, proud of some things, but I don't. Like, it's not, like, my natural tendency to go to that. Like, it's very much like, oh, it's fine. Like, oh, it wasn't a big deal. Oh, it's all right.

00:30:32 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:30:32 - Dana Kadwell
In the same way, because I don't love the, like, I guess, the attention of it.

00:30:36 - Courtney Hopper
I don't like the ex all adaptation of it. Like, I really like to think about myself as everybody and nobody all at the same time. Like, I like to think that someone, like, plopped in my same position could do the exact same thing and more.

00:30:51 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:30:51 - Courtney Hopper
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, I'm, like, this unique person, but also, I want to believe that everybody can do it, given the same opportunity, for sure.

00:31:00 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:31:00 - Courtney Hopper
So whether that's true or that's not true, I mean, I'll, like, you know, maybe figure that out when I die, but that's just kind of how I see. So when I start taking, like, a lot of people start saying things, and it feels very much like the pride piece comes in. I'm not saying that proud of what we've done. It just feels like. Yeah. But, like, given the same opportunity in that situation, like, you would have done the same thing, you know what I mean?

00:31:23 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, for sure.

00:31:24 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. So what was your favorite business takeaway?

00:31:29 - Dana Kadwell
I think I said through the ends, like, knowing your goals. I think that was, like, a really. I did, like, a business coaching session this past year that was really helpful to kind of, like, lay out. Like, what are my goals? Like, where do I want to go? Like, what is it that I'm striving for? What is it that really wants, like, feeds my soul. Right. And I think that for a lot of people, like, your business kind of sucks your soul. Like, it just takes it away, and there's definitely been some parts of that. Parts of it, for sure. And so I thought that was really helpful to kind of, like, to think through that and then also to recognize, too, because if you would have asked me ten years ago, 15 years ago, it would have been very different, like, you know. Yes. Starting the starting C and D was a hobby. It was not, and it wasn't. I didn't start that business because I thought we were going to be rich. That was not at all what I thought. Like, I didn't think that was the case. It was something I enjoyed. It was fun. Like, it felt like a really cool thing to do. I enjoyed the planning side of it, the, like, creative side of it, like, all that. Right. And that was very much the reason that was the goal. Like, I just want to plan great weddings, want to have great clients. I want to be able to say that I'm a wedding planner, because that seemed really cool at the time and all that. And then when we started really, like, thinking, going down the path of the venue, I remember having a conversation with Sam on the back deck, and I was like, this is financial freedom. And he was like, I think you're.

00:32:50 - Courtney Hopper
Full of shit, but whatever. Like, this is financial servitude, Dana.

00:32:55 - Dana Kadwell
More or less worse. You didn't say it that harshly, but, yeah. So, like, I think that that's when it kind of shifted for me. And then I think that's where even now, like, when I look at the businesses and there's definitely. There's a part of my soul in C and D events, like, I firmly believe, like, that is, like, that is my genuine baby, and I had to walk away from it two years ago.

00:33:15 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:33:15 - Dana Kadwell
Because I was like, I can't be around this half ass shit that you all are doing. Like, I can't do it. And it's not because it was wrong. It's just because it wasn't how I would do it, because I cared so much about it. And the vision of it had changed. The purpose of it had changed. All of it had changed to the point where it wasn't recognizable, and I didn't want to have any part in it. And so now I have a very detached feeling about it, and now I look at it very clearly. Is this going to reach my goal? Is this where. Is this getting me to where I want to be? At the. Every time I look at it and I say, no, but it's not. It's only half mine. It gets to where you want to go. So, you know, we still have it, but it's very much like that. I can filter things very much through that now. It's like, okay. Like, we're making this decision. Like, even as before, I would say five, six years ago, when we were like, okay, we got to do Xyz at the Bradford. Like, hey, so the clients wants, great. And it's like, okay, wait. Okay, this is what clients want, but is they going to get me to my goal? Is this, like, going to get me further to my plan of retiring at 50? Am I be able to charge more? Is it going to, do I have to bring on another employee? Because I do. It's going to cost me more money. All of these things are factors when you're making these decisions, and now it's very much filtered through that. And I thought it was a great piece of advice, and I think it really helps those that are in that kind of weird middle spot to know what to do as opposed to what they feel like they should do or what they're afraid to do or whatever. Yeah.

00:34:34 - Courtney Hopper
Interesting. I think the point that you made about women in general in business, not being able to really be honest and be okay with what they need and what their goals are, I think is true. Like, it is hard to separate how you've been trained and groomed in a way to put aside what you want in the service of somebody else as opposed to really being able to speak and know. Like, I think a lot of people don't even know, like, even though they're, like, doing these things and they're like, they can't even be honest with themselves about what their goal is a lot of ways, especially as a female.

00:35:12 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but there's. I think it's that. I think it goes back to what you're proud of type thing. So, like, even, like, when we got our, the first, we got the Audis for the first time, I remember, I didn't post about it. I didn't talk about it. I didn't want anyone in the office to even know that it was, like, a business car, that they figured it out eventually.

00:35:27 - Courtney Hopper
She didn't quickly.

00:35:28 - Dana Kadwell
And it's because it felt so. So, like, like, showy, I guess, maybe. And it felt, like, almost embarrassing in a way of like, oh, we're like, we think we're this successful. We are the successful. And then we're trying to, like, you know, now we have this nice car or whatever. And I think back to it, and I was telling Sam about this one time, and he was like, do you think there's ever a dude, male CEO that was afraid to drive their flashy new car?

00:35:55 - Courtney Hopper
No.

00:35:56 - Dana Kadwell
And show, like, look what I got. I can. I can afford this car because I make x amount of money. Right. And I was like, absolutely not. You know? And he's like, well, that's the difference between, like, it seems like it's not a bad feeling to have for you to, like, be, like, to think through your actions and whatever, or like, to be. Care enough about your employees and whether they're invested in your business or whatever. He's like, but that's. That's like, that's. That's a you thing. That's not like, yeah, but I was trying to make is like, is this. Is it society is. And he's like, no, it's you. That's how you feel as a house of society feels about you.

00:36:26 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, but it's like how you've been trained to think, like, as a woman.

00:36:30 - Dana Kadwell
Well, just even as a business owner for many, many years, we were so proud of the fact that our people made more money than us. That's fucking bullshit, right?

00:36:38 - Courtney Hopper
Yes. Right. Would be the sign of a failing business normally.

00:36:42 - Dana Kadwell
Well, it's not that, but it's like, what it did is it created such an insecurity in me because I didn't have the funds to be able to, like, I mean, literally to eat some months. Like, you know, like, because we were. We were. We were paying our people so well that we were suffering so much that, like, I couldn't even be fully present. Like, how faster we have gotten to where we wanted to be if it was like, if we had actually, like, invested in ourselves and our education, all that stuff. Like, all those things, you know? But at the time, you just think, like, oh, I'm just going to be a servant to these people. Clients, employees, all of it.

00:37:17 - Courtney Hopper
I had this whole conversation about sex recently. Like, it reminds me of this. Okay, we're talking about.

00:37:23 - Dana Kadwell
I don't know where this is going.

00:37:24 - Courtney Hopper
I know. Dana never does. She loves talking about sex, by the way. She doesn't. But I was having this whole conversation about sex and orgasms and, like, why women fake orgasms, right? And I said, I think it's just because as society. Like, I think there's two reasons. One, either you're ready to be done, right.

00:37:42 - Dana Kadwell
That's the only reason.

00:37:43 - Courtney Hopper
Okay, great. But put the kibosh on. No, I do not think that I said that. I think that also it's because I think we are taught to make men feel better. Like, we are taught. Yeah.

00:37:53 - Dana Kadwell
It never once felt that way.

00:37:55 - Courtney Hopper
Okay, well, I'm not talking about you then. Thank you, anomaly. But I think that you're taught to make somebody feel better in a relationship. You want to make them feel good about what I was talking, and this person was like, but aren't you perpetuating the problem. Like, yes, it could totally, 100% perpetuates the problem. I'm not saying that it's like. But it is like the way that women are wired. I mean, I'm sure if you took a poll, I promise you, I'm sorry.

00:38:17 - Dana Kadwell
Women feel great, but that's also like a complete. That's a complete red flag of who you are deciding to engage in that feels like they need to have that.

00:38:27 - Courtney Hopper
But it reminds me of that oftentimes we take on this, making everybody else feel more comfortable at our own expense, even to something as intimate, like an intimate relationship about sex. Right. Like. And it perpetuates this thing that you. Bad sex. Right. This thing that you don't want.

00:38:45 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:38:45 - Courtney Hopper
Like, they don't even. You're not even giving the opportunity for someone to learn your body or whatever. You know what I mean? Or decide or discover what you like or what you don't like or whatever. But I think it just. It's so pervasive, the point I'm trying to make.

00:38:56 - Dana Kadwell
I understand. I understand what you're saying, and I'm.

00:38:59 - Courtney Hopper
Happy you're having good sex.

00:39:00 - Dana Kadwell
Thank you. I'm not saying I am too.

00:39:02 - Courtney Hopper
Me too. But I'm just saying that I think that it's like, just a way that we're wired as a women. And I think it even transcends into that business world.

00:39:10 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's for sure. I mean, it's anything. It's trying to lift somebody up and confirm, like, oh, that was a great idea when it wasn't a great idea or whatever, let them down easily.

00:39:21 - Courtney Hopper
They don't even know the severity of that actually really fucked us up.

00:39:24 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:39:25 - Courtney Hopper
But it's okay.

00:39:26 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but, yeah.

00:39:28 - Courtney Hopper
This kind of reminded me of that conversation that I think it's just the way that we're taught and wired and how it's different. It's different between being a man and a woman. And even to digress even further, how we're talking about right now, like, has there ever been a president that's had a baby and yet we're, like, persecuting this woman for not having, like, these same. That's like the different values.

00:39:48 - Dana Kadwell
No, no, I agree. But it's definitely like you think of. But you can look at it from many angles here. Right. So it's. Is it a sign? It's a sign of health, obviously, in any relationship that you can be honest and truthful, and there's difference between, like, being mean and being honest.

00:40:04 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, yeah.

00:40:04 - Dana Kadwell
Right. Those are two very different things. Right. So. But I, you know, I think that it's one of those things where you're looking at it from. If you're looking at it from a business standpoint.

00:40:13 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:40:14 - Dana Kadwell
Like, have you cultivated a place of work where people can be honest? Like, you can have the hard conversation and you can be kind, but you can still have that transparency and that honesty. And I think that's where a lot of it fails is, like, I think it's where. And you look at, because you automatically have corporate America and you think of women taking a step back or, like, trying to let somebody down easy, or whatever the case may be, it's because they don't feel safe. And it's just the same way, like, when you out, like, when you're out at a bar and you have to let a guy down easy because you don't feel safe.

00:40:47 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, sure.

00:40:47 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, that's 100% true. That's really what it all comes down to. And so whether you're in a relationship, an intimate relationship, or you're in a workplace or you're in a casual dating spot, like, the only way to be honest and truthful and to have all these things we're talking about, right. Is to be in a place where you feel safe.

00:41:04 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:41:04 - Dana Kadwell
And I think that's rare. And I think that's what's rare, is being in a place where you feel safe enough to be who you truly are and authentic.

00:41:11 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, that's like, a very roundabout way.

00:41:13 - Dana Kadwell
But, yeah, I think it's true.

00:41:15 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's true. So my business, my favorite business, we.

00:41:18 - Dana Kadwell
Haven'T even gotten to.

00:41:20 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, we have. Nothing was to fail quickly. We can just quickly talk about that, which I think we're terrible at.

00:41:25 - Dana Kadwell
Failing quickly.

00:41:25 - Courtney Hopper
Yes. I'm just gonna throw that out there.

00:41:27 - Dana Kadwell
Long, drawn out.

00:41:27 - Courtney Hopper
It is a long, drawn out, painful thing. And again, getting back to where life mirrors business, I remember at the end of my last relationship, my therapist was like, pain's inevitable, Courtney. How much suffering are you gonna cause? I was like, huh, that's true. It's like, almost like in business, the pain's inevitable. How much suffering are you gonna cause in the middle of it? Yeah, but, like, recognizing when something's not working, and I think this goes to, like, even, like, hiring slowly firing quickly when you recognize that person's not working. Like, chop, we're done like this. Make it as painless as possible. Stop the suffering for everybody. Yeah, but I think. I don't know. I thought that was.

00:42:03 - Dana Kadwell
I just think this is just so hard. I think it's hard to, like, I don't trust myself all the time. Cause I can get very, like, fiery about stuff, and I'm like, am I just. Am I just being, like. Like, mad? Am I just overreacting? Like, do I need to take a beat? Like, all those things? And for me, like, the best thing is to get in front of me. Like, I cannot handle conversations via text message, via email, or, like, oh, she said this or she said that. That just makes me so angry when I hear it. And I can, like, have this whole diatribe about, like, how horrible this person is. And then you sit in front of them and you have an actual conversation, and there's humanity there.

00:42:39 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:42:40 - Dana Kadwell
And it changes my perspective. So then I get confused. I'm like, well, I don't know. Maybe this person isn't awful. Maybe this is this or that or whatever.

00:42:47 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:42:48 - Dana Kadwell
I think that's why I struggle to fail quickly, because I don't trust it.

00:42:50 - Courtney Hopper
You don't trust your emotions?

00:42:52 - Dana Kadwell
My emotions. I don't trust that it's actually failing. I think that it's like, there's very few times I'm like, this is an absolute, utter failure. Done. Get out of my office. There's been times I'm like, is it failing? Is it because of this? Is it failing because of this? Or is it failing because of this reason? Are we nipping the right thing in the bud here or we're not?

00:43:11 - Courtney Hopper
Well, I think there is always, like, some question about that, but even, like, even, like, if it's, like, a thing at the Bradford that we're doing, or, like, wow, that's not gaining traction, or if there isn't buy in on the team about this, like, the ability just to say, okay, fine, like, that's a fail. What direction should we go in?

00:43:26 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I have a hard time with that. I had a hard time. We let go of the summer showcase because I feel like. I feel like it was a failure in effort.

00:43:33 - Courtney Hopper
It was a failure. Yeah, that's true.

00:43:35 - Dana Kadwell
And it makes me mad.

00:43:36 - Courtney Hopper
It's an indicator of where we all were. Like, where everything.

00:43:39 - Dana Kadwell
I agree. It still made me mad. Well, because going back to introspection, it was like, oh, it's just the time of the year. I'm like, no, no, it's because y'all didn't do your job.

00:43:48 - Courtney Hopper
Let's talk about our fuck up in this. Like, what was.

00:43:51 - Dana Kadwell
I think, like, it's. I think going over, like, where do we let fear drive our decisions? Or, where do we let fear become obstacles in our decisions, I guess, is what I would say.

00:43:59 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I mean, I can see lots of that. I mean, we can go like right down to the very beginning of the way we financed the Bradford was very fear based. Like the afraid of being rejected at a bank. I think it wasn't fear of being.

00:44:10 - Dana Kadwell
Rejected at a bank. It was fear of having a payment so high that we couldn't make it.

00:44:14 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Like not believing in the product.

00:44:16 - Dana Kadwell
Not believing in the product. I don't think it was fear of that. Like, we only went to one bank.

00:44:20 - Courtney Hopper
That's true. We did not call 202 places.

00:44:23 - Dana Kadwell
And I'm sure that if we had gone to multiple other banks.

00:44:25 - Courtney Hopper
We could have made it happen.

00:44:26 - Dana Kadwell
We could have made it happen. So I think that. I think it was just. It was fear of. It was fear of failing. It was fear of being like. Putting everything we had into it.

00:44:35 - Courtney Hopper
Putting it all on the line.

00:44:36 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Because the fail safe was we would just live in the house. So then we just become a mortgage that we were already paying anyways. The same mortgage at that point. So it wasn't a big deal.

00:44:46 - Courtney Hopper
It was definitely fear based decision, for sure.

00:44:48 - Dana Kadwell
And it was a bad decision.

00:44:49 - Courtney Hopper
I think the first person that we fired incorrectly. Was a fear based decision. And that ended up being very terrible.

00:44:54 - Dana Kadwell
Yes.

00:44:55 - Courtney Hopper
Because we were just afraid to fire somebody.

00:44:57 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I was afraid of coming off as a bad person. I was afraid of the optics of it.

00:45:02 - Courtney Hopper
We were afraid of the optics of it. Yeah.

00:45:04 - Dana Kadwell
I was afraid of not being what I thought was kind. And I thought I was doing the kind thing. By giving time and notice. And it was not at all kind.

00:45:15 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. I think there's been lots of fear in our relationship.

00:45:18 - Dana Kadwell
Yes.

00:45:18 - Courtney Hopper
Like, lots of fear driven decisions in our relationship.

00:45:21 - Dana Kadwell
Sure.

00:45:22 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Like, I think. Which, like, comes across as, you know, dishonesty or inauthentic or whatever. But I think once you. For us in particular, like, hey, like, this is my capacity. Or this is where it's at. Or this is how I see it. Or this is whatever. Or this is the fear. Like, when I say that, how you're gonna react, you know.

00:45:39 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:45:40 - Courtney Hopper
I think it's been.

00:45:41 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, I can see that from. I mean, not to, like, you feel that way. Like, from my perspective, I don't feel that from my perspective, I don't feel afraid to tell you how I feel. I feel like I feel pushed into it sometimes. When I'm not ready to talk about it.

00:45:53 - Courtney Hopper
Sure.

00:45:54 - Dana Kadwell
But I'm not afraid to be like, you're making me mad or I'm feeling overwhelmed, or, I need you to step it up here or whatever. And I think there's definitely moments of that, or, I'm not afraid to say, I can't talk to you about this anymore. I'm done. Yeah.

00:46:07 - Courtney Hopper
But I can definitely think. I can definitely see sometimes where we tiptoed around each other and let fear drive a decision or lack of perspective or whatever that I think.

00:46:18 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:46:19 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. And I could definitely feel, like, for me, there's in my life, like, fear kept me in my marriage for too long. And it wasn't until I sat down and I said this in the podcast that I was like, hey, I want a divorce. But here's what I'm afraid of, XYZ. I need not to happen. And it didn't happen. I'm not saying it was easy or whatever. It wasn't seamless, but I was like, I'm going to state these fears out loud. This is what I'm afraid of, and why I'm been hesitant to say this. And then for that person to say, hey, I'm not going to do those things to you, like, to be true to their word was very liberating because I spoke it out loud. Like, this is my very worst fear. Right.

00:46:55 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I mean, I shared the same fears.

00:46:57 - Courtney Hopper
I shared the same fears, too. Yeah, I did.

00:47:00 - Dana Kadwell
But it was like.

00:47:01 - Courtney Hopper
But being able to look at me like, you're not gonna be the one that takes care of our kids. Like, I need to be able to, like, fund our children's lives in the way that I am able to. And you played no part in this.

00:47:11 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:47:11 - Courtney Hopper
And so my fear is that you're gonna take this away, and I'm not gonna be able to be the mom, show up and do what it is I need to do for our kids. And he said, I won't do that. And he literally didn't.

00:47:19 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:47:20 - Courtney Hopper
But I think if I had not faced that fear and, like, spoken it out loud, it could have ended in a different direction.

00:47:26 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:47:27 - Courtney Hopper
You know what I mean?

00:47:28 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I thought there was a lot of fear for us when we got. We were in the messy middle of C and D. I think we made a lot of decisions that were based on, like, scarcity mindset, like, of not being able to, like, employ other people or whatever. And I think that created a lot of dysfunction in the business. It became something that grew in a way that was unsustainable and unmanageable, and then all of a sudden, it was like, it imploded in a way. They put it back together, but, like, it was.

00:48:02 - Courtney Hopper
How many times you put that thing back together?

00:48:04 - Dana Kadwell
So many times.

00:48:04 - Courtney Hopper
Four times. I don't know.

00:48:05 - Dana Kadwell
I just feel like when you 18 years, like, what do you expect? Like, what do you actually expect?

00:48:09 - Courtney Hopper
Well, it's our first time doing it, so I don't know.

00:48:11 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but. I know, but I'm like, is it like a five year, like, cycle?

00:48:14 - Courtney Hopper
I think it might be.

00:48:15 - Dana Kadwell
So now we're on the fourth iteration, which we are, and that makes sense.

00:48:18 - Courtney Hopper
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's true.

00:48:20 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:48:21 - Courtney Hopper
Good episode.

00:48:21 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:48:22 - Courtney Hopper
I love talking about those things.

00:48:24 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Things are very important things to talk about.

00:48:26 - Courtney Hopper
I do. To learn more about our hustles, visit us on the gram at cndevents, at thebradfordnc, at Anthem House and Hustleandgather. And if you're interested in learning more about our speaking training or venue consulting, head to our website@hustleandgather.com, dot.

00:48:49 - Dana Kadwell
And if you love us and you love this show, we'd be more than honored. If you loved a rating and a review.

00:48:54 - Courtney Hopper
This podcast is a production of your affluence. I'm Courtney.

00:48:57 - Dana Kadwell
And I'm Dana.

00:48:57 - Courtney Hopper
And we'll talk to you next time on Hustle and.