00:00:00 - Dana Kadwell
How can I make your job a respite for the rest of the world? Like, when you come in and you feel fulfilled, you feel happy, you feel valued, you love what you do. It's a place where you find joy and comfort and not a place where you feel obligated to be there. And I think that that's where we're struggling a little bit with, with that. It's like, are the right people in place that feel that way? Welcome to. Welcome to Hustle and Gather, a podcast about inspiring the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I'm Dana.

00:00:37 - Courtney Hopper
And I'm Courtney.

00:00:38 - Dana Kadwell
And we are two sisters who have started multiple businesses together. And, yes, it is as messy as you think because we know that starting a business isn't easy.

00:00:45 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, we've done it four times. And on this show, we talk about the ups and downs and the hustle and the reward at the end of the journey.

00:00:51 - Dana Kadwell
And in this season, we're talking all about the messy middle, you know, when.

00:00:55 - Courtney Hopper
You have to decide to either grow or scale your business or maybe even take a step back.

00:01:00 - Dana Kadwell
And last week, we talked with Audrey Joy Kwan about scaling your business without escalating stress.

00:01:05 - Courtney Hopper
So this week, the two of us are talking about the lessons we learned from Audrey.

00:01:10 - Dana Kadwell
Well, I thought that was a great episode.

00:01:12 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, it was so good. I didn't know what to expect, actually, when I was reading what we were going to be, who we're going to be talking to.

00:01:17 - Dana Kadwell
I know. And I feel like we talk about scaling so much as other people and, like, hiring that sometimes it's. You don't expect to learn something new.

00:01:25 - Courtney Hopper
I know. I now feel like an imposter.

00:01:28 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, I know. I felt that same way. I was like, I don't know if I should be advising people on this right now.

00:01:36 - Courtney Hopper
You know, that's exactly how I felt. She had so much good information.

00:01:40 - Dana Kadwell
So much good. Like, so many good little nuggets there.

00:01:42 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. All right, well, let's dive right in, I think. Let's start with your personal. What was your favorite personal take? Which I think I felt like a stretch for me to find it personal because it was so business heavy.

00:01:54 - Dana Kadwell
To me. It was. But I really liked that. Her question, because we were talking about how people drop the ball, and she says, not about dropping the ball, but it's about, like, how do you catch the rebound? And I won. The visual totally can see that. But, like, I thought that was just amazing advice because I think that is the question. It's not about what happened but it's like, how do you recover from it? And I think that just pertains so much, not just to business, but to life in general. Just like anything that's thrown at you, like, how do you catch the rebound? You know, stuck or you're, something terrible has happened or even something hard happened, like, what do you do? And I think when she was talking about it, she was saying how, like, you almost create a process for it. So when there is this thing, who's the one that's responsible for, how am I going to communicate it? And I was like, oh, that's like such good advice personally, too. Like, when something hard happens, whether it's like in your family, in a relationship, it's like, okay, like, how am I going to communicate this? Who is responsible for it? You know? So I thought it was, I just thought it was really a really impactful statement, I guess.

00:03:02 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I mean, I've always thought about that. Like, the first thing that went to my mind wasn't actually personal. But I, like, your personal connection was like, when I talk about vendors, like, who I want on my vendor team, like as a, either as a venue or like as a planning team, because it's like we're all human and mistakes are going to happen. Like, that's inevitable. But I want to work with the vendors who are going to catch the rebound. They're going to own the mistake. We're going to learn from it. We're going to be stronger because of it. But, like, thinking about it personally, all I can think about is dating. Like, like when you're, like, meeting somebody and you're, like, interacting with them and like, you're, like, this person can't handle a rebound. Like, this person can't handle when the ball is dropped and how they bounce back from that is like, not something that is, like, sustainable for a relationship or whatnot. Do you know what I'm saying?

00:03:47 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, yeah. But I think that's true for a lot of people in general. Like, I think that's why I think that is, honestly, it is not to, like, knock the generation gen alpha or whatever, but sometimes you look at your kids and it's like you have a hard time rebounding because I've always caught you. Like, you've never actually fallen, so you don't even know how to handle adversity. You don't even know how to handle when something wrong, when you don't get what you want or when you fail at something because we're so as parents, you just, you want to spare them so much of that pain and whatnot. And so there's definitely been, like, I think, a conversation, I think about two or three years ago, me and Sam had, and he's like, the kids have got to start learning natural consequences, which is true. And they've had a lot of natural consequences, and it sucks to watch them go through it. You're like, oh, I hate that for you. But it has taught them how to rebound. But I see that so much in the younger generation where they don't know how to do it. They just don't know how to pick themselves up. They don't know how to take responsibility for something. It's just. They automatically want to assume that it's someone else's fault and it's out of their control, and, oh, well, life is. It's an adage, like, what is it? It's, like, happening to you or for you, right? Oh, yeah.

00:05:01 - Courtney Hopper
Life is happening to a lot of people. Luckily, we've had some really tough years over here, and my kids have had the opportunity to pick themselves up or to even talk about bad years. I was talking to Mason even this morning, and we have football in summer, we have football workouts from seven in the morning till ten every day. So, like, I got to get up at, like, 630, get him up, drive him at 640, get him to workouts, because if he's late, he does push ups because of me, which he told me he did today. I was like, well, I'll do better tomorrow. You know, that's all I got. He was like. He's like, yeah. He's like, I just want to show. I'm like, I'm feeling a lot better. Like, getting back into football, like, just makes me feel, like, so much better. I feel like my psyche is feeling a lot better. And I was like, yeah. I was like, just in general, like, it's been, like, a big year of adjustment. He's like, yeah, it really has been. He's like, think it back on, like papa dying and, like, all these things, but I'm just feeling better. I'm like, you know, but that's life. Like, sometimes you go through rough years. I said, I look back on 2023, and I personally also felt traumatized from 2023. 2024 is going so much better. I said, but that's kind of the ebb and flow of life, right? You're gonna go through these hard times, things are gonna happen, you're gonna gain perspective, and then I love that you can see how it's not always right, and you're going to bounce back from that. So I think, you know, even just, like, talking through some of those things, even when things are hard and kind of looking at, like, this is what it was like for. This is what it's like then. And this is just kind of how life goes sometimes, so. But, yeah, I definitely feel like I had a lot of life applications for sure.

00:06:22 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. What was your favorite personal?

00:06:25 - Courtney Hopper
Well, I thought, like, just her really. Well, one, like, sharing about her mom dying. I can't even imagine, like, being dia, from any perspective. I can't imagine being diagnosed with something and being gone three weeks later, whether you're like, the bystander or the person, but her question of something that you always wish you did but didn't because of fear. And I feel like. I feel like I've often said life begins at the edge of your comfort zone. Like, there is a fair amount of fear, I think, that is involved in taking big steps and any big steps, you can think about that universally, whether it's a business, whether it's a relationship, whether that's building something new or even renovating, all of that. There's some amount of fear associated with all the biggest things that you do in your life. But I just love it. I thought that that was a good kind of mantra, like, what's holding you back because of fear? And also with the juxtapot, the juxtaposition, but the realization through the lens that life is short and finite because you know that, like, you know that intellectually, that, like, any moment could be your last moment, right? Like, we drive around going, like, 85 miles an hour in, like, ten cans, right? So, like, any moment. You know that. But it's like, what am I not doing? Because I'm afraid and yet I'm putting myself in peril every day, right. That you seem to just, like, kind of tamp down and go and do.

00:07:48 - Dana Kadwell
What would be your answer?

00:07:51 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, I feel like I face a lot of fears. I mean, I feel like I'm kind of living as a product of facing some fears at the moment right now. But, I mean, I'm sure there's things that'll pop up.

00:07:58 - Dana Kadwell
For sure.

00:07:59 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, for sure. For sure. I don't have anything at the moment that I feel like I'm not doing because of fear. I. I'm not because of capacity, but that's not fear, you know?

00:08:10 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like, the biggest thing that has changed in the past, like, you know, year or so, it's that I've always been so afraid of, and I still. It still is. Underlying fear in general is. Is, like, being, like, a real, true. My real, true self in a lot of ways because there's definitely a fear of, like, not being accepted or wanted or whatever. I. So there's always that in the back of my mind. So even as I, like, even as just today, I was in a meeting and a leader of this group and having to deal with confrontation, and I don't know, there's someone who is not in the group. It was, like, an outside issue, and there's someone who's upset about the way this process I have been doing, and executive director was like, just don't take it personally. And I was like, you know, I actually am not taking this personally because I know that I did everything that I could do, and I know this process is solid. Like, I know it's good. And they just are reacting in a way. And there's so much of me that would have never been able to do that a year ago. Like, it would have been like, oh, my God, like, what do they think about me? Like, are they upset with me? Or, like, you know what I mean? Like, are they gonna think I'm a bad person or. Let me fix it. Let me fix. Let me fix it. And I'm just like, I don't really need to fix this problem because it's not a problem. This is just someone's misconception about something they know nothing about, and they're just putting their nose in the places they need to be. And that has nothing to do with me. Absolutely not. But I still think that there's every. There's moments in my life where I have to say, don't be afraid of this. Like, continue forward. Like, even. Just, like, building new relationships and, like, reaching out and texting someone to hang out or even, like, that kind of like, oh, is that weird? Or. You know what I mean? Yeah, I thought it was great. I think it was a very good question to start off with.

00:09:57 - Courtney Hopper
I guess I could say, yeah, I thought so, too. I mean, this relates so much to the adult dating world, but you're not in that, so I am not. Lucky you.

00:10:06 - Dana Kadwell
I am very lucky.

00:10:08 - Courtney Hopper
Let's go to business. What was your favorite business takeaway?

00:10:12 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, this is, like, the biggest, like, mind blowing light bulb moment when she was saying how catastrophic unicorn hunting is.

00:10:20 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:10:21 - Dana Kadwell
But it's like, and you know it. I think if you would have. If I would have, like, dug into the depths of my soul, I would have known it. But it's it's just not, it's not normal to even say that. Like, everyone always says, oh, you found your unicorn. Oh, you found a unicorn. Oh, this is the unicorn, you know? And it's like, why are we looking for these unicorns? Because, and if you think about it logically, unicorns don't exist.

00:10:45 - Courtney Hopper
I would say that, although I feel like you can tell me, you can pick who you think I'm thinking of. I feel like we had a unicorn.

00:11:55 - Dana Kadwell
When you're looking at the job roles, you have, you know, sales, you have client experience of all this stuff, and then you're hiring for these major things, and then the smaller things that you're doing is, you know, it's, again, hiring that niche person. And I think for our mind, you have to get out of it is this idea that they have to make x amount of money and they have to have x amount of this. And maybe it isn't always this perfect place, like, rounded life. Like, I don't know. I guess I just. I think a lot of it just comes down to is, I don't understand that lifestyle. I don't understand that, like, in a. The need to not want security in that way.

00:12:50 - Courtney Hopper
I think they want security. I think they want that lifestyle, but they don't actually really want to work for a lot of people. Like, they feel entitled to it and not actually willing to do the work for it sometimes. And I think that when you. I think you sometimes get a better product, maybe from somebody who's putting together things that they love, cobbling together a life that they love, you know, like, this fulfills this aspect and this fulfills this aspect and this fulfills this aspect for them. Whereas in our mind, we just have been trained and programmed of that. Like 30 year, nine to five committed. You're my employee, pay you well and you have enough benefits and the things just to be able to be devoted to us, but they're still not right, even though that's the case.

00:13:36 - Dana Kadwell
I just think life is so exhausting. I think it's just exhausting. It's exhausting to be alive today. It's exhausting to be a person. I think that our minds are never quiet, and they're always constantly being influenced by this and by that or whatnot. And we are being sold a false bill of goods. I think there's a lot of fear and, like, the future. Like, no one knows the future of our country. No one knows if, like, it's just, it's so exhausting. And so I think that there is just a level of apathy that has settled in, that is hard to combat and has nothing again as I do. I don't even think it's about the person. I don't think it's about the job. I don't. I think it's just literally the circumstances of the world, it's too much. I mean, I can't. I remember when it was. It was. There was like a couple months. I think it was towards the end of the year or something, but one thing happened and another thing happened, and another thing happened, and by the third time that something happened, it's like I can't even emotionally care anymore about the atrocities that are happening around me because I don't have. I'm like, I'm out. And it's. The whole world's like that. Like, everything just seems so heavy and so hard. And so I think, for me, when I look at it from an employer perspective, it's like, how can I make your job a respite for the rest of the world? Like, when you come in and you feel fulfilled, you feel happy, you feel valued, you love what you do, it's a place where you find joy and comfort and not a place where you feel obligated to be there. And I think that that's where we're struggling a little bit with that. Is. Are the right people in place that feel that way or is that the way to the world? And then realizing, like, this isn't really what I. What I want to do, but I have. I don't know what else to do. I have nowhere else to go. I can't. You know what I mean?

00:15:24 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:15:25 - Dana Kadwell
And it's like that same thing, like, too. Like, where sometimes I look at it and I don't know this is true, but, like, oh, well, they get paid so well. They have all their needs met. They have flexibility. And in their mind, are they. They know they're not going to find anything different, but they still can't muster up the energy to love it.

00:15:41 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:15:41 - Dana Kadwell
Do you know what I mean?

00:15:43 - Courtney Hopper
I know. It's a puzzle piece that we cannot solve. It is clear.

00:15:49 - Dana Kadwell
Right. Right. I mean, so true, but there, but there's. And there's things where we've given up, like the dream of it. Like, we don't have full time, like, venue people, venue hosts or supervisors anymore. Like, that is a part time gig. People find it to be fun. It's easy to train for all that. But, like, there are some things that, like, I can't give up. I can't create part time. Like, you can't create part time sales. You can't create part time, like, client coordinator, you know, like, that's full time work. So.

00:16:23 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I thought that was good.

00:16:24 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. What was your favorite business?

00:16:27 - Courtney Hopper
My business takeaway. I loved how she said, when you talk about scaling a lot of people, you talk about, like, the ten x a book, and they think about this big thing, but really, it's about doing less so that you can grow more. And I felt like, while I know that right there is the application of that, that sometimes can be a little hard and guilt ridden for me, but I had to grow. I personally had to grow out of that. And I think, too, I could say in tandem to the last conversation we had, just kind of leaning into that entrepreneur mindset that it is stifled in the grind. So you have got to start clearing your plate to be able to create the vision to do the next thing that you can then backfill with people, employees, processes, or whatever, that kind of keep it moving forward. But I think I love that concept of doing less. So you can grow more.

00:17:17 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I mean, I think. But I think that's true. Like, if you can apply that all over your life in general. Like, yeah. Even to the point. Like, you know, I've told Sam, like, we're in such a busy season of life, you know, once renovations are done, like, we're hiring a house cleaner, and I'm not cleaning this house again, like, because we want to do more with my time with our family. Right. Like, it is. And, you know, even when we were actually the poorest we ever were with kids, I had a house cleaner once a month. Like, because I knew, like, my time. Like, it just. It ruined everything. Right? It just ruined the. The emotions of the day. It felt too overwhelming. And I was willing to give up cable or streaming or whatever to. For me to know that this is the one thing that I need to do less of so that I could do more for our family. Like, I could be a better person for our family. And so I think it's like. I just think that's so true. And I. And it is a struggle. It's just. I don't think it's a struggle for me to let go. It's a struggle for me to trust other people to execute my vision, I think.

00:18:21 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. And it's a trouble. It's a struggle not to backfill your schedule. Like, oh, you're. Like, I'm doing less. Let's go ahead and backfill this. Oh, yeah. I can do that. Yeah, I can do that. And then you're like, no, I can.

00:18:31 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I see. I don't. I don't have a problem with that. I do not backfill.

00:18:34 - Courtney Hopper
I don't. I don't now because I don't have an option.

00:18:36 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I don't. But what I, but what I do when I have idle time and I have the ability when I'm not stressed out and I have the ability to, like, dream, I do think of new things, like, oh, we should do this, and we should do this. We should go into this area and we should really focus on this. And I think it's finally like, and it's so interesting because someone said something like, oh, like, don't you miss planning? And I was like, I miss planning in 2006 to 2018, I missed those twelve years of planning because in those twelve years of planning, it was 100% where I should have been. And I loved it. And I loved it. I did. I'm sure I had ups, downs, but I loved it. I loved the job. I loved what I did. I felt very.

00:19:16 - Courtney Hopper
You should have not planned in 2019.

00:19:19 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, no, that was it. That was the year, and that was the year, if you remember, 2019. We were like, we can't do this anymore. And I knew the passion had gone. It was done. And so there's this freedom we have to give ourselves to recognize that we're ever evolving, we're ever changing. We're ever, like, figuring out who we are as we get older because someone, they were asking me, they were asking almost in an accusatory way, like, oh, didn't you love planning? And why are you doing this? Because I'm a different person than when I was 25. Like, that was many, many years ago. Right. So, like, being able to look at, like, at this season in my life, this is what I, this is where I find passion. This is what I love. And the freedom to be able to do that is so life giving. Like, and I think that's what it is. I think that's where you can start. When you scale, you can take a step back and say, and maybe your, your passion is just being a CEO, right? Maybe your passion is just, I just want to be here and be the visionary and be the one to help, like, lead the overall team. But I don't want to be in the day to day, and I want to have. I only want to work 10 hours a week as a CEO. Right. And I want them to do the bulk of it. Maybe that is your passion and your dream, and that's fine. That will never be me. Like, I'll always do something else and do here, like, try this thing or whatever. But because you can scale your business, you can step back, you have the freedom to really fall into what it is that you're passionate about. You can do more with your life.

00:20:47 - Courtney Hopper
Well, yeah, I mean, but in life changes, right? Like, right now, while you have kids and you're, like, on the. You're, like, on the conveyor belt and it's moving and you're like, wow, I got, like, four years with you. I got three years with you. I've got, like, this finite time of being a mom, right, which feels like forever when you have them at the beginning. But, like, once they start getting into middle school and high school and you're going to graduations, you're like, it's not forever. You're like, okay, what did I build this business for? Right? I. Why am I letting it trap me at this point when it could, I could make a different decision. That's maybe just a decision for these five years, and then I might want to make a different decision later, you know? Yeah, I agree. All right. So overall, talking about overall takeaway, I.

00:21:33 - Dana Kadwell
Really love the conversation about leadership because I feel very passionate about that in general. I think that that's the root of a lot of issues is leadership. And I think even being humble enough to say, like, a lot of our issues was our leadership, which is why we hired someone else to lead that team. I feel like we lead high achieving people well. Like, we lead. We lead leaders well. We don't necessarily lead non leaders well. Right. In some sense. Right. So I think it took a lot of, like, swallowing your pride to recognize that that is the case. But I really loved it how when she was talking about us later, like, sharing your leadership philosophy, and I do believe we do this. I do. I know that. And we've had many conversations about what our values are. But she took it one step further that I was like, interesting, because our values are very much about what I said, the podcast is true. Like, I will fire you instantaneously if you are a liar. Like, if you just lie and you can't take responsibility for your actions, like, I'm done. Like, I'm done. I don't respect you as a person. I don't need it in my business. I can't lead someone who's dishonest. I know it. It's toxic. It's done. Like, I'm. It's over. Right. I do not fire people because they can't do their job, because they mess up at their job, right? It's because if they consistently mess up and they refuse to change and pivot and learn and grow, they do the same thing over and over again. Like, it feels like there's so many chances there. And there's been many times we've said, like, hey. And we've said that to them, like, hey, our biggest issue is, like. Like, our values are honesty and kindness. Like, that's, like, that's my family values, but that's very much of our hospitality. It's like, hospitality, like honesty, like being an approachable person, being a. Being somebody who is a team player. And we said those words, but I've never said, this is what that looks like. And it was such a kind of like a. Aha. Moment of, wow. Like, what they consider honesty. What I consider honesty might be different, right?

00:23:41 - Courtney Hopper
You could be speaking two different languages.

00:23:43 - Dana Kadwell
Right? And I thought there was a, like.

00:23:46 - Courtney Hopper
In my mind is like, don't triage your problem. Like, you know, like, if you're like, we are a business that's built on our reputation, right? So, like, client experience is everything that also falls back on hospitality. So when it's going to hell in a handbasket and you're trying to triage it with conversation and email and not involving the team so we can put more brains to what could be a potential dumpster fire, like, you're not being honest about what's going on with your job, right? And you could just be thinking that honesty is like, you know, I always tell the truth in terms of, like, if you ask me a direct question, I'm going to give you a direct answer. But it's like, no, there's honesty in between the lines right here. There's honesty in how we do business, and I. How things are going with clients.

00:24:24 - Dana Kadwell
Well, I mean, yeah, but even, like, even. Even at a, like, kind of more abstract level, there's honesty in your desire to be there, right? So, like, even so. Even, like, in the very much the example I gave, like, the ball is being dropped, they're recognizing that the ball has dropped. And then instead of saying, like, instead of coming, approaching with a problem solving attitude, like, oh, wow, this is a problem. Like, let's fix this. How can we fix this? Let's work together. It's all of these finger pointing things. And to me, that is. That is. That's dishonesty, because that's telling me you don't want to do your job. Although you're telling me to my face that you want to do your job right. It's the inability to self reflect and say, hey, I actually had a role in this. This is crappy. And it's okay to say, dude, this hole's here because we haven't been trained on this, but I recognize that it's probably something I should be doing. I mean, I just think that it was eye opening to explain what that looks like. And, you know, and if you were to ask me, like, what my leadership philosophy is, for sure. Transparency, honesty. But it's. It's also just. It really comes down to respect. Like, I just. I can't lead somebody if they don't respect me and, like, what I've built. And. And I think. And we have said that in more or less words, but again, I don't think they understand what that looks like to my face. Like, oh, we respect you so much. It's like, well, this is. This is what respect looks like. And this is all the things that you're doing that makes me feel disrespected. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it just is, like, this kind of, like.

00:25:59 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I do feel like, especially. I think especially in the line of respect. What people mean by respect is, like, a thousand different things. And, like, what people say they respect and what it feels like on the other end, or like, two very different things. Like, it is, like, in the, like, even, like, when we've, like, been in the dregs at the end of an employee's life cycle with us and whatnot, and they're like, I have respect for you. It is, like, laughable to me when they say that, because I'm like, there is just no way on God's greener that if you respected me, you would be acting this and this and this way or feel entitled to this or, like, not recognize that you. Your job was created on the back of my blood, sweat, and tears. Right? Like, that's the only reason we're here talking about this, but there isn't respect for that. You know? And I think that one of the things I think when you're talking about that made me really think about this and the values is, like, I would probably add to the list that you have to have some level of self reflection to be able to work in this industry. And for us, like, the passing the buck and the inability to look at, because you're interacting with thousands of people every year. Thousands of people. And it's gonna go wrong sometimes. Like, that is just a nature of it, but to not be able to be introspective over, like, how to make that better or what you did wrong or even what you don't like, but then to keep putting yourself in that situation over and over and over again, because it's the nature of the beast, right? Like, it's gonna be the same thing every weekend, then your inability to be introspective, like, hurts my business.

00:27:32 - Dana Kadwell
And it's so interesting because I've. I mean, you know me, and I'm, like, extremely passionate person, and I have a really hard time. Like, I have a really hard time with the finger being pointed at me in general. And what I've learned about myself is in those immediate moments when it's like something has gone wrong and I'm being blamed for whatever, I feel very fiery about it. And I have learned in my 40 years to not say anything, and I have to reflect on it, and I have to take a moment to process it, and I can say, okay, like, why was I so upset about it? Like, why did that bother me so much? Because the truth is, when I know that I'm right and I know that I did all the right things, I don't get upset about it. And I can look at sushi and say, like, okay, I can see maybe how you feel that way. But I know that I did everything that I could. I know I did it with honesty and integrity. And the times I get the most mad is because I know that I fucked it up. And I'm not mad that I was wrong. I'm mad that I fucked it up, because I hate that so much. Right? And I think that there is this inability to even. To even recognize that, you know? And we've had so many conversations this year about, like, the peak. Like, this was the best year, and everything went great this year, and everything went great this year. And I was talking, like, who are you talking to? Yeah, no, but I mean, this is, like, us having, like, talking to, like, our coo or whatever. And the conversation she's having with employees.

00:29:02 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, yes, yes.

00:29:03 - Dana Kadwell
And. And today, I was finally like, you know what? You're right. But you know what? In 2021, you know how many people booked without touring 1212, sight unseen bookings. Right. 2022. Like, it was a. It was a different animal. Like, if you were to take the exact same people of 2024 and throw them into 2023, we'd have the exact same issues. The problem is that they're different people. There's different problems. Right. The clients they need, they're afraid of money. We've had more cancellations than we've ever had because they don't know how to pay their bills. So it doesn't matter what worked last year. It doesn't matter where two years ago, because it's not working this year. And it doesn't mean that everything is broken and wrong. It just means that, are you able to pivot and change and adjust? And there is amount of self reflection to say, like, hey, like, I'm actually not, like, doing a great job. Not because I'm bad, but not because, like, I'm doing something terrible, because I'm not meeting the needs of what's in front of me and my clients. And so I need to learn a different thing. I need to approach this from a different angle. I need to adjust. I need to pivot. And that is what is lacking. It is like, well, I wasn't trained on that. Well, I wasn't fucking trained on it either. But I can see a pattern. I can see that this isn't working. And I can say, huh? Why isn't this working? This is how I've done it before, and maybe it's not working. Maybe I need to change and adjust it as opposed to pointing the finger and saying, like, I wasn't trained on that.

00:30:40 - Courtney Hopper
Mm hmm.

00:30:41 - Dana Kadwell
You know what I mean?

00:30:42 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I do.

00:30:43 - Dana Kadwell
Like, it's so much of that. Like, that's like. Like. And as a leader, I could use that example all day long and be like, I don't want to lead you. You're unleatable. Like, you're just not. You know, it's like, I feel like I'm going to write this, like, cheat sheet to Dana. This is what's going to piss me off.

00:31:04 - Courtney Hopper
You should write that and send it out.

00:31:05 - Dana Kadwell
Like, yeah, and, like, this is why I'm having a hard time. This is, in my mind when you say these things and you do these things, it is disrespectful, it is dishonest, and these are directly against my values. That's where it's at.

00:31:19 - Courtney Hopper
It's a tough year. It's a tough business year. Like, it's a tough business year because people are counting the value of their dollars. You have to step up to the.

00:31:27 - Dana Kadwell
Plate, and, like, we're not stepping up to the plate.

00:31:29 - Courtney Hopper
We're not stepping up to the plate. Like, there's something, like, every weekend, and that's new. And, like, you are. We, like, in the hospitality industry in general, I'm not saying it's necessarily just us, but people are, like, living on the coattails. Of what was like the psycho after Covid. And that just doesn't fly. Like, you've gotten to all these bad habits and there's no, like, effort towards the customer experience and the.

00:31:55 - Dana Kadwell
They're so resistant to change. Yes. It's like, what?

00:31:59 - Courtney Hopper
Right? And it's like, I miss going in and I'm doing my job description based on how it was done last year and the year before, and it just doesn't translate.

00:32:05 - Dana Kadwell
No, I miss.

00:32:06 - Courtney Hopper
And I'm assuming your conversation today was all about sales on some level.

00:32:10 - Dana Kadwell
Some level, for sure. I mean, it was about sales. It was about, like, just attitude in general. Like, you know, one of the things that she. That we were talking about. And she was like, honestly, like, like, it's impeding my progress. And I encouraged her. I said, you need to have it come to Jesus. And she's like, I've had somebody. I was like, this needs to be your last one, and your job is to be the middleman here. You're buffering so much. I'm sure I only know the 10% of what's actually happening. And we have given you the power to make decisions. And they need to understand the reason why they're nice to me and that they're like, coddle me is because they're afraid they're going to lose their job at any second because of how many people we've let go and the changes that we've had. We have not created a safe psychological place for them at all. So true. It is so true. But they need to understand that when you report to us and you're going to come to us and you're going to say, I can't effectively do my job because the attitude is so toxic. Like, I'm going to look at them and say her and say, find somebody.

00:33:21 - Courtney Hopper
Else, then create your team.

00:33:24 - Dana Kadwell
You create your team, that's going to make you successful. I'm not picking one over the other. Like, this is the path we're taking. This is the person I've entrusted to whip this into shape. And if you can't get behind it, then that's what needs to happen. And I think that. I don't know if they see that. I don't know if they should.

00:33:45 - Courtney Hopper
She also could not be any more pleasant. I mean, she's so much softer around the edges than us.

00:33:50 - Dana Kadwell
I know, and that's the thing she said. She's like, look, I'm the buffer. They have more freedom to talk with me like they're more real. You know, it's just what we want, in a way. And I was like, you know, but there's a way to handle something. There's a way to look at something and say, okay, like, the carpet needs to get cleaned. It's really bad. You know, is there a way we can do that? Yeah, sure. We're gonna. We have it scheduled for June 24, as opposed to being like, this is so awful and so disgusting. We had rip this whole entire thing out because it's never gonna get clean. It's never gonna be good enough. Like, two very different experiences. And as a manager, if you heard that second experience, what would you be like? Like, feeling so defeated, so attacked. You're like, but I've scheduled the cleaners. Like, they're supposed to be here. They're going to fix the problem, right? Like, it's like, you can never make anybody happy who has such a negative attitude about it. And it's like, do they recognize that that is how it comes across.

00:34:47 - Courtney Hopper
Which is fun? And I think that people, like, in your business, they're there for a reason. A season and a lifetime sometimes. And, like, as an entrepreneur and, like, the way that we've kind of scaffold our life, like, we have been able to try on, like, 30,000 different hats, right? And, like, you're like, let me. Let me look at this aspect. Let me look at this aspect. And let me look at this aspect, right? And I think sometimes, as employees, like, there is a finite place to go. You don't necessarily have that opportunity. And I get it. And what that looks like when you're not an entrepreneur is you go and you do a different job.

00:35:23 - Dana Kadwell
Right?

00:35:23 - Courtney Hopper
Like, you leave that company, you go to a different job, you're challenged in a different way, and it does something else for you. But it's like, there's such a negative connotation surrounding that I think, or maybe fear based, I don't really know. But it's like, let us have the person that they're bringing their skills and their skillset and their passion here, and you take your skills and your skill set and your passions there, and that's just a normal part of life.

00:35:46 - Dana Kadwell
Right?

00:35:47 - Courtney Hopper
I know.

00:35:48 - Dana Kadwell
I ran into somebody at our last NAIcs meeting, and they were saying. She was just like, hey, be really candid. I was really upset when so and so left, and she was like, I just thought something terrible had to have happened. I was like, nothing terrible happened. She was an amazing employee, and I loved her dearly, and she did an amazing job. But, like, she was miserable, and she had outgrown the position, and she was no longer serving our vision. But it wasn't negative, it wasn't awful, it wasn't contentious. Like, we gave her an amazing severance. We've helped her. We told her we'd help her in any other position. Like, I mean, I gave him a requirement, a review or whatever recommendation, and they're like, would you hire again? I was like, I would totally hire again if I could give her what she needed, but I can't give her what she needs, so she's not, it's not a good fit. And, like, there's nothing wrong with that, but you're so seen as this villain in it. And she was. The person was like, oh, I was like, yeah. Like, I'm not an asshole all the time, right?

00:36:46 - Courtney Hopper
Like, occasionally, yeah.

00:36:49 - Dana Kadwell
But I'm not. Like, I'm not. I'm not cold hearted either. Like, it's very much about, like, I want what's best for you. I want. I want what's best for my company. And sometimes those things don't jive. And that is okay.

00:37:01 - Courtney Hopper
Okay.

00:37:02 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's totally okay.

00:37:03 - Courtney Hopper
I know.

00:37:03 - Dana Kadwell
Like, it's not the end of the.

00:37:05 - Courtney Hopper
World, but, like, as someone that's been in a business, right? Like, we've been in a partnership, I mean, basically, like, almost 20 years now, right? And we've, like, had so many evolutions, there was a learning curve to be in. Like, hey, I know I do this, but I hate doing this. Or, like, this is like sucking my soul. Okay. You're like, all right, let's outsource it, or let's do this, or, like, I'm going to take on this, or this, what it's going to look like. And, like, we've reorganized 2700 different times. Right. It's like, a constant conversation, but it's, like, from the employee perspective. And maybe we could start, like, an Instagram influence on this platform alone. I think there should be a destigmatization surrounding, you know, hiring, firing, and creating spaces where you can be like, this isn't feeding my soul. And therefore I'm doing more harm than good here. And not just being like, it's okay because that's just the human condition. Like, as we grow and change and, like, it's, for some reason, in everyone's mind, it's fine to grow and change in every other aspect but their job and their career, you know, and where they're at, it doesn't make any sense.

00:38:04 - Dana Kadwell
I don't think you shared your business, have you?

00:38:06 - Courtney Hopper
No, I don't. Think I did.

00:38:07 - Dana Kadwell
It was really overall. It was overall.

00:38:09 - Courtney Hopper
Overall, yeah, it was. My overall was just that a good leader empowers people towards their vision.

00:38:15 - Dana Kadwell
So very sweet.

00:38:16 - Courtney Hopper
I think we've kind of beat that to a pulp at this point, but, yeah, I think definitely, like, you see that as a parent as well. Like, you see that in community, you see that in business, that to be a good leader, it's not necessarily that you're doing it all, but you're empowering people towards that vision and kind of creating like, the roadmap for said vision, which I think is important.

00:38:38 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just. I think it's hard. I think it's hard to leave people. I think it's one of the hardest things that we do as humans in general, and it's just not for the faint of heart.

00:38:52 - Courtney Hopper
I agree. I do agree. I firmly believe when she was talking about scaling isn't necessarily about building these huge teams. It's about looking at your priorities and how to achieve them. And sometimes that can be really small because sometimes there's a lot of heartache in the scaling that isn't there even in the just doing, you know?

00:39:09 - Dana Kadwell
Right, right. Well, this is kind of like. I don't know if you've kind of touched on it a little bit, but when you could. When you could look at it as a whole, like, what do you believe is the fuck up? And I can't remember if we were doing it business by business at this point.

00:39:23 - Courtney Hopper
We were doing a business by business.

00:39:26 - Dana Kadwell
So the selling was C and D. And I mean, scaling. I feel like our biggest one is honestly the Bradford at this point. But I don't think we've already talked about it. I can't remember.

00:39:36 - Courtney Hopper
We haven't spoken about it. But I think as far as scaling, that is where we've scaled. And I think that. I firmly believe, and I think that even, like talking to Audrey here, that it was. That we had one vision of how. Of what it would look like to work for the Bradford or what that lifestyle should be like. And it was necessarily like, we're going to attract the best employee with this and not pick the best fit for our business, like what our business needs are.

00:40:11 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:40:11 - Courtney Hopper
But we're going to pick the best employee that's going to stick around because we didn't want to hire and fire over and over again. We didn't want the turnover. But I think there was not a level of acceptance that when you're in hospitality and like what we do, that turnover is inevitable. And you just got to do what's best for the business, like, fits that model as opposed to finding that employee that's gonna stick it out and get resentful. I don't really know.

00:40:36 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that there was this idea of. I mean, truly, like, it's. I don't want to say it's like the savior complex either, but there was this very, like, proud moment of where we're like, hey, we're gonna hire people full time, and we're going to give them benefits, and we're going to pay for their cell phones, and we're going to make their lives flexible, and we're going to make them have this beautiful life, and we're going to be the facilitators of this beautiful life. And because that's truly, like, the passion of it. And it's just, there was something that we felt very proud to offer that and how it's. I don't want to say it's bitten us in the ass. I don't think that's necessarily true.

00:41:19 - Courtney Hopper
I just turned into a level of resentment.

00:41:22 - Dana Kadwell
Well, for some people, yes. But there are certain employees I don't resent at all. And I would be like, you want more money? Here you go. Like, no problem. So I think that it's not that. I think it's just more of assuming that every person wants that same exact thing and recognizing that, like, hey, if you want this stability, this is what this looks like as a whole. And if you don't want this stability but you still want to work in this industry, like, this is what this looks like. Creating, like, opportunities that aren't just one specific opportunity. And I think a lot of it was just because we're so afraid to hire part time, because we're afraid of people not being loyal to the part time gig.

00:42:10 - Courtney Hopper
I think that. But, like, for example, I just did bar payments, and we had one bartender just, I do them every two weeks. This was, like, two weeks worth of work. I mean, it's $1,200. She comes in, she does the bars, closed it down. Like. Like, multiply that. I mean, that's a good part time gig. Like, a good.

00:42:28 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:42:28 - Courtney Hopper
Half of someone's money for something that's, you know, maybe 15, 20 hours a week.

00:42:34 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:42:34 - Courtney Hopper
Over two days. Like, this very, like, truncated time where you're working these 910 hours.

00:42:39 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:42:40 - Courtney Hopper
You know.

00:42:41 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:42:42 - Courtney Hopper
Making good money.

00:42:43 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, I still feel like we're in the middle of it, truthfully. I don't know how it's gonna. Hopefully by the time this comes out, we'll have it all fixed.

00:42:51 - Courtney Hopper
Ha. What? Okay. I hope so too.

00:42:55 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I mean, I think it's on the way. I feel like the past, the past six months has been very much figuring out what it is that we. What needs to be fixed. Like, what did. Like, rethinking the process, rethinking the work plan and the workflows and all that stuff. Like, I really loved her, really honing in on that work plan. And one of the things I've been meaning to do is on all of our sops that we have is creating KPI's for them. Like, how do you know you are successful with this SOP? This is what it looks like. And so that it kind of gives them to, like, a measure of if they're successful, if they're not successful or whatnot. But it's hard. It's one of the things that is so hard as, like, an educator. It's so hard to fix your own house sometimes.

00:43:44 - Courtney Hopper
We are those people.

00:43:46 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. And it's not like we don't recognize it and that it's like, oh, we're perfect, and everything's perfect here. And. No, it's just everyone has different issues, whatever. But it's one of those things where I have to remind myself that I'm a human and I don't have it all figured out, and we're not perfect. It doesn't mean that we don't have value for all the things we have experienced, but, yeah, it's definitely, like, an uncomfortable place to be in.

00:44:13 - Courtney Hopper
It is uncomfortable, yeah. But I do think, I personally think that it's uncomfortable place to be in. I think the economy is an uncomfortable place to be in. And so, like, you're feeling the pressure from a bunch of angles, and I think that there's just a certain amount of tenacity for employees to be able to, like, stay in it, do their job, and, you know. Yeah, I think it's a lot. I think it's a lot of pressure, especially in our industry right now. So, yeah, that was really good. Yeah, it's a great episode. It was a great episode. I did, too. It made me think about a lot of things, which I really appreciate.

00:44:45 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:47 - Courtney Hopper
We can bring it up to Amanda at our next meeting. To learn more about our hustles, visit us on the gram at canddevents, at thebradfordnc, at anthem.house and hustleandgather. And if you're interested in learning more about our speaking training, venue, consulting or our conference coming up, head to our website@hustleandgather.com.

00:45:12 - Dana Kadwell
And if you love us and you love this show, we'd be more than honored if you left a rating and a review.

00:45:17 - Courtney Hopper
This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I'm Courtney.

00:45:20 - Dana Kadwell
And I'm Dana, and we'll talk with.

00:45:21 - Courtney Hopper
You next time on hustle and gather.