00:00:00 - Dana Kadwell
They're selling you this total false life. It's not real life. Like, no, you cannot go on vacation for three months and never check your email. If you are an owner of a company that is unrealistic. It does not matter what you have in place at that point. Sell the goddamn thing.

00:00:15 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, right.

00:00:25 - Dana Kadwell
Welcome to Hustle and Gather, a podcast, the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I'm Dana.

00:00:30 - Courtney Hopper
And I'm Courtney.

00:00:31 - Dana Kadwell
And we are two sisters who have started multiple businesses together. And, yes, it is as messy as you think, because we know that starting a business isn't easy.

00:00:38 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, we've done it four times. And on this show, we talk about the ups and downs of the hustle and the reward at the end of the journey.

00:00:44 - Dana Kadwell
And this season, we're talking all about.

00:00:46 - Courtney Hopper
The messy middle, you know, when you have to decide to either grow or scale your business or maybe even take a step back.

00:00:52 - Dana Kadwell
Last week, we talked with Casey Helmick about how to know when it's time to sell your business.

00:00:55 - Courtney Hopper
So this week, the two of us are talking about the lessons we learned from Casey. I really enjoyed that conversation. It was so good.

00:01:03 - Dana Kadwell
Me, too. It was very insightful. I felt like I did, too.

00:01:06 - Courtney Hopper
I had a lot of fun. So many thoughts.

00:01:08 - Dana Kadwell
Yes.

00:01:09 - Courtney Hopper
All right, well, do you want to start with your favorite overall? Overall? Okay. Okay.

00:01:14 - Dana Kadwell
My favorite overall was, and I think we are probably gonna talk about this multiple times, but when he said to find your seat on the bus, and I feel like it really ties into even what you're.

00:01:25 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, my overall is very much. Not everyone is meant to be a CEO.

00:01:29 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Because I felt. I feel like there is this kind of, like, to his point, he was talking about earlier when he was saying how, like, he built it. And so he had to be, like, the salesperson. He had to be, like, the content creator. He had to be the client coordinator. Like, all these things, and then you have all these things in your tool belt, and then all of a sudden, you're like, I don't want to do this anymore. But you, like, really have felt like you're the only one that can do these things. And I think that when I think about the burst of success, right, like, when we've had, like, we were kind of stagnant and we've had, like, lots of growth, I think it's because we, me and you have found the right seat on the bus of our business. And we've taken. And we stepped back and said, you know, I'm actually not good at this. I need to not be doing this anymore.

00:02:13 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I think, like, this has actually been, like, quite a journey for me in general. Like, kind of, like, figuring out what my seat is, realizing that my seat is, like, I'm a shapeshifter, so my seat changes all the time. I feel like. And I remember having. I've had many conversations with you, like, Dana, I don't have any tangible skills that I can really put my finger on. Right? Like, it's like, the intangible things that I bring to the business that I feel, like, obviously are important, but I can't necessarily list them out. And so I think about, like, oh, like, I can say, like, you know, Sarah is really great at social media. Like, she's great at picking pictures. She's great at editing. She's great at blocking her time getting those things done. Like, you're great at information architecture. You know? Like, you are somebody that can, like, scaffold information such that another person can receive it, and it means something, right? Like, your ability to do that, I think, is great. You know, like, there's, like, these tangible skills, and I'm like, what's my skill? People? Words. Sometimes not even that I have the words. I can just tell you that your words sound bad, right? Like, I can't tell you what sounds good, but I just know that's bad. Or, like, idea generation, top down view. And in your mind you think, oh, that feels like CEO. Like, oh, I'm just looking at this from a bird's eye view. I'm not actually in the middle, like, doing all those, like, nitty gritty little things. And that's just not the case.

00:03:42 - Dana Kadwell
I think it's the case if you have all the other cos, if you have the COO, the CFO and the CEO, and you have a trifecta of those things. I think the CEO is very much a bird's eye view in a lot of ways. So I think it's. I think, you know, I always, I always struggled with people, like, who you'd go to these conferences and be like, I'm CEO. I'm like, your CEO of one, your CEO of your planning company. Congratulations. That sounds really snarky. I'm sorry for anyone who puts it on their bio, but it does feel that way. And, you know, I don't have a.

00:04:11 - Courtney Hopper
CEO in my bio at all, by.

00:04:12 - Dana Kadwell
The way, and so I try. So it's like, it's one of those things where you're like, that CEO of that man of one or that company of two or three is very different than a CEO of, like, McDonald's or, like, Walmart, it's very different because you're not doing the operations, you're not doing the finances. You are the bird's eye view. And so I think it's recognizing that maybe your seat on the bus is supposed to be the visionary or the one that is kind of like the puppet master. Right. Like, pulling the strings. Or maybe your seat on the bus is handling operations and having someone else help you pull the strings, you know?

00:04:50 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:04:50 - Dana Kadwell
So it's just trying to figure that out. But I say that all to say that I think CEO's like a yemenite, transient word. Like, I don't think it's.

00:05:00 - Courtney Hopper
It's, like, up for interpretation.

00:05:01 - Dana Kadwell
Yes, it's a better word.

00:05:03 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, definitely. I definitely feel that way. Cause I am. I mean, I found myself. I mean, I'm in the middle of it now. Like, I would like to discuss actually getting a personal assistant jointly between the two of us to get some of the, like, media work that we have to get done. Done. Dana's giving me a side eye here, but I'm like, there's times now that I'm like, even though it's, like, what I need to do for the company right now, and, like, it fits my lifestyle. Like, some of it's, like, so menial that I'm like, any person could be doing this as long as it was done right, and I could oversee it, you know what I'm saying? But the actual, like, doing of it, like, isn't in my skillset at all. And it is actually a little soul sucking, you know? Yeah.

00:05:39 - Dana Kadwell
But at the same time, like, you have to. What I struggle with, too, like, now where we're at is that we have a coo who's taken a lot off the plate. They're still. I mean, we're still in a little bit of a handholding phase because we're a lot of. It's just her getting rid of some of her responsibilities, finishing out some jobs and stuff like that. But what is hard. It's hard to justify hiring somebody when I can look at some things. And, yes, there are some days I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't get done what I need to get done. But there's a lot of days I can't get down when I don't, like, can't get done because I didn't go into work one day. Cause I just didn't work.

00:06:14 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, yeah. I mean, I do have some days like that.

00:06:16 - Dana Kadwell
So there's a couple of that. Where you're just like, well, that. So I have a hard time, like, you know, justifying, like, oh, I need to pass this off because I'm so overwhelmed. Like, well, I'm so overwhelmed because I didn't, like, actually do the job I'm supposed to do. Yeah, you know, which I think is different than what you're saying here, but no, I mean, I think that. I think that there is this.

00:06:36 - Courtney Hopper
It's not overwhelmed, by the way. That's not how I feel.

00:06:38 - Dana Kadwell
No, but it's. But there is this, like, it's like an addiction when you start hiring people, because, like, oh, wow, this person's. I don't have to do this now. I don't have to do this. And then you start questioning everything that you're doing, the thing that you're like, oh, at one point, I loved doing this. And then you're like, oh, can I hire that for that? Because I don't want to do it anymore. It's this almost like you're catching laziness. It's a disease in a way. I know that sounds really terrible, but that's how I feel about a lot of things. But the only time that I've really been able to justify and say, okay, look, we need to hire somebody, and it is because exactly what he had said before. I see something else on the horizon, and I know I can't do both.

00:07:15 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, sure.

00:07:15 - Dana Kadwell
And so if there's not anything on the horizon, then it's just me being.

00:07:20 - Courtney Hopper
Like, but when don't we have something on the horizon often?

00:07:23 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, have some on the horizon for a couple of years. I mean, the last few years, we haven't had anything. I mean. I mean, you can't say hustling gather is on the horizon. It was not on the horizon. It just was a byproduct of things. There wasn't, like. There wasn't a move. There wasn't a, like, a plan. It was just a thing, you know?

00:07:39 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I agree.

00:07:40 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:07:41 - Courtney Hopper
But, yeah, I definitely think I liked that. Like, I felt that deeply. Like, not everyone's meant to be a CEO.

00:07:47 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:07:47 - Courtney Hopper
And that's. And you know what? That's fine. That's totally fine.

00:07:51 - Dana Kadwell
Totally fine. What was your personal takeaway?

00:07:57 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, I think it kind of, like, falls in line, but when he was talking about, you need to pick your specialty, you know? And it kind of did really make me feel, like, very much about, like, kind of back to how I felt when we were doing C and D, and it was busy, and we're opening the Bradford. And, like, it was mandatory for us to do the amount of events that we did and to get the work done and to, like, save the money and, like, put it towards the project and all of that. For sure. Like, it definitely had its time for that. But, like, the further I got removed from that and, like, we started hiring people and contractors, the more I realized I actually like this. Planning, like, this is not my specialty. And I kind of, like, near the last couple years, I was like, as I'm selling the team, because I was good at selling the team. Like, I was good at saying, oh, you should go with this person, or, you should go with this person or this person on the team who fits your personality. And I do think I have a skill for that. Like, hey, like, you'd be adaptable in this role. I would always be like, but if you get me, you're getting the worst man on the team. Right. And I knew it. Like, I knew I was the worst on the team. Like, I didn't have the capacity. I didn't have, like, the way my. I was calm on the day. Like, and I'm. And I still to this day, like, on our big events with c and D or anthem house or whatnot. Like, I'm great on the day. Like, I want to be your right hand man. I don't want to plan any of it. Like, I don't want to have the back and forth with a client over the price of flowers. Like, I don't want to create that floor plan. I don't want to, like, think through anything.

00:09:19 - Dana Kadwell
Is it because you didn't like it because you weren't good at it or you didn't like it because you didn't like it?

00:09:24 - Courtney Hopper
I think I didn't like it because I didn't like it.

00:09:26 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. So I think that's. I think that's the big, like, to me, like, a misconception in a lot of ways. Like, I agree. Find your specialty, but at the same time, your specialty may be something you don't like.

00:09:35 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, it was for a long time. Yeah, yeah.

00:09:38 - Dana Kadwell
No, but I'm saying, like, so figuring out what it is that you're really good at. Right. The thing that, like, you do really well, it may not be in line with the thing that you want to do.

00:09:47 - Courtney Hopper
This sounds like a conversation that we've had before in the past where you're like, I hate my skills.

00:09:52 - Dana Kadwell
No, I know. No, no. But my point is, I think. And I think back to this in a lot of ways, like, I think it's what's wrong with the world today.

00:09:59 - Courtney Hopper
Okay, let's talk about what's wrong with the world today.

00:10:01 - Dana Kadwell
It's a lot of. And you see this, like, being in the classroom, right? Educating this next generation of entrepreneurs and students.

00:10:09 - Courtney Hopper
And you sound, like at Meredith.

00:10:11 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you're dealing with adults, right? And they're adults. Yeah. There's their older adults. Right. But, like. And even just dealing with our employees a lot of ways, it's. It is this feeling of, like, you can't push through what you don't like. Right. It's this inability to recognize and say, like, hey, I am really good at this, and I have to do this. It's like the thing, like, talk about taxes. Like, do I love talking about taxes. Absolutely not. Do, like, I want to pay them. No, I do not want to pay them. Right. But I have to do it. It's just part of the job. And I think that there's a lot of things in life that we just have to do. But there has been this shift in our society that says, you don't like it doesn't bring you joy. Get rid of it. And, like, that's not practical. Right. Like, if I.

00:10:53 - Courtney Hopper
How is anyone's garbage gonna be picked up if we have to all do things that bring us joy?

00:10:57 - Dana Kadwell
No, but my point. My point is, is that in a business, there are things that you are really good at, right. That you like. Okay, I excel at. This is my specialty, but I can also look at it and say, like, I actually don't really love doing it, but because it's my specialty, I have to continue to do it. And as long as your whole day isn't consumed by things of the have tos. Yeah, um, that. But there's always going to be a have to. And then. And whenever I go to these conferences, like, the last conference I was at, there's always people like, oh, my God, you can do this. You can do this. And, like, they're selling you this total false life. It's not real life. Like, no, you cannot go on vacation for three months and never check your email if you are an owner of a company. That is unrealistic.

00:11:37 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:11:38 - Dana Kadwell
It does not matter what you have in place at that point. Sell the goddamn thing. Right? Like, you still have to. Like, even if I know I'm gonna be on vacation in Europe and I'm gonna get a stupid text message. What's the stripe code? What's the stripe code? Dana, I know you're in Ireland, but what's the stripe code?

00:11:53 - Courtney Hopper
That's right.

00:11:54 - Dana Kadwell
I can be like, nope, can't have it. Therefore, we can't pay our bills. Cause I give, you know what I mean? Like, it's just. It's unrealistic. So I appreciate so much saying, like, what is your specialty? Honing in on it. And hopefully all your specialties aren't things that you hate. And if that's the case, you need to, like, reexamine what you're doing with your life. But there are going to be things that you're really good at that you're just going to have to do, you know?

00:12:16 - Courtney Hopper
Are you telling me that I can't have a personal assistant?

00:12:18 - Dana Kadwell
No, I'm saying that there is a difference between what are you good at and what is it you like to do to your point of planning? Is it that you hated planning because you hated planning, or did you hated planning because you weren't good at planning? And I think it was a little bit of both.

00:12:34 - Courtney Hopper
Sure.

00:12:35 - Dana Kadwell
I think you knew it was always a struggle, that it wasn't your second nature to plan wedding. So it wasn't joyful, it wasn't easy. It was hard, it was laborious to you, so you didn't like it.

00:12:45 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I do. What?

00:12:46 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, yeah, I think. But you liked it. You liked the relationship and the day and, like, parts of it. You know, some relationship.

00:12:52 - Courtney Hopper
I actually feel like my personality and I landed into some great personalities, like, in planning. Like, I still have friends now that I plan their events for. So, like, it wasn't, like, all lost, but in general, like, my personality does not jive with, like, happy, fluffy, I'm getting married. Time of your life.

00:13:12 - Dana Kadwell
Sure.

00:13:13 - Courtney Hopper
You know, and especially at that time, I was like, why is anyone wanna get married? I'll take your money, but this is bullshit. Just wanna let you know and I'm gonna do a good job. Cause you look like a repeat customer. Right. This isn't gonna work out. And that's kind of like, my mentality was a lot of the times realizing that my strength is really probably more in the business conversations than having, like, kind of those really hard, direct conversations with our vendors. I love that. Like, I love my c level friends, you know, and whatnot. So, like, I think it was partly that, but yeah, I mean. I mean, I thought it was good enough.

00:13:42 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:13:43 - Courtney Hopper
I never garnered really a bad review, which is odd. Cause I felt like there's all these great planners on our team, and I think I had the most. Meh. Like, not great, but I never had a bad one, you know? And so, like, it worked and it was fine, and it was the time, and I was gonna do it. Cause what I had to do, but just kind of realizing it on the back end that. Yeah. Like, I didn't love it, but I did it, and it was fine, you know? But I loved where it got me.

00:14:07 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:14:08 - Courtney Hopper
And that was equally as important to me that I was building something. Right. You know?

00:14:12 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah.

00:14:13 - Courtney Hopper
What was your personal takeaway?

00:14:15 - Dana Kadwell
I really like when he was talking about how when you're starting something new, you have to look at it and ask if the old is gonna slow you down. I think that's so true in all aspects of life. Like, not just business. Like, if you are trying to, like, move forward in something and you have to look at it and say, is the past, is past experiences or things that I have in my life right now, are they going to slow me down? Like, are they going to prevent me from doing this thing that I'm really excited about, you know?

00:14:44 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:14:44 - Dana Kadwell
Like, even. And it's just. I mean, personally, you can think about it even from, like, when I think about what's new, it's like, okay, Ada is, like, going to high school, right? And Henry's entering his last few years of middle school. And so we're on this. We're on this conveyor belt of, like, where we have four more years as Ada, six more years with Henry, and then we're home by ourselves, right. So there's this, like, feeling. This is a new stage of our life that we're not quite, like, ready for, I don't think, to be truthful with you and all old notions, like things that you told yourself, like, I would never let my kids do this, or I would never do this, or I wouldn't. You know, like these things that you said when you were 22 or when you had, like, an infant or a two year old or whatever, like, why is that teenage parent, blah, blah, whatever, like, letting go of some of the old stuff and, like, just being. Getting ready to, like, go into this next phase, you know what I mean? And, like, recognizing that just because you thought something before doesn't mean it's how you have to think now. Or things that work for our family now isn't gonna work for our family next year, you know? So it's things like that, like, just thinking through, like, okay, this is a whole new stage. And what is it in our life right now that is going to slow us down? It's going to hold us back.

00:15:57 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. I mean, I resonate with that quite a bit. I feel like there and my thought on this is a little bit like, I felt like there was a time we both were this way, like, in our twenties and early thirties and maybe mid thirties that we found worth in our busy. Like, wow, we have so many things. Like, we are juggling so many things. Look, I am a circus artist. Look at what I am doing. I can juggle all of these things. Like, I am busier than you, therefore I am more worthy and more productive than you. And again, it served us for a time, for sure. Lots of therapy later. I feel like I don't see any worth and value in that. I don't see the value in the busy, because, actually, sometimes it's the busy that holds you up from the purposeful and I think kind of cutting out what is just busy work in your life. Like, as you're looking at this, like, what's just busy work that I can cut out and that's gonna slow me down from doing what it is that I really feel passionate about right now. And it doesn't even mean I'm gonna feel passionate about it in, like, two years. So what I feel passionate about right now, you know, I think back to.

00:17:04 - Dana Kadwell
Like, why I felt that way. And, you know, what I was really seeking in a lot of that was validation. I just wanted someone to look at me and say that what you're doing is valuable and you're doing a good job. And, like, I'm not even, like, I'm proud of you, but, like, you, there's just a sense of validation. And I see it so much now. Like, I was actually talking about this yesterday with Sam. There's, like, a mom of one of, like, on that I interact with often, like, friends with Ada or whatever, and she's a teacher, and I feel like every conversation, she's trying to make her job out to be bigger than it actually is. Don't come at me. Teaching is a very hard job.

00:17:49 - Courtney Hopper
Teaching is a. We did it.

00:17:50 - Dana Kadwell
We did it. We both were teachers. I am not saying that. I'm not saying that at all.

00:17:53 - Courtney Hopper
It's a big job.

00:17:54 - Dana Kadwell
It's a big job, but it's things like. But she has to point it out all the time, so she wants that validation of someone to be like, oh, my God, you work so hard. This is the hardest job. And I've said that to her at times. I'm like, I don't know how you do what you do. It's amazing, blah, blah, whatever, but it's just like, it's that constant need to be told that what she's doing is valuable and worthy. And then it makes me sad in a lot of ways that she's not getting that from the people that she probably needs to hear it from. Like, whether it's a spouse or her kids or whatever.

00:18:22 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:18:23 - Dana Kadwell
Like, I feel like my kids validate what I do all the time. Like, they recognize how hard we work. They recognize the sacrifices. Like, it's not taken for, like, my time is not taken for granted with them because they know that it's valuable. Right. But I think that that is, like, such an important. How to get over that, like, that feeling of constantly. That feeling of needing to be busy. I think it's because there's something you're really seeking. There's some kind of, like.

00:18:47 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I totally agree.

00:18:49 - Dana Kadwell
I don't want to say truth. Or, like.

00:18:53 - Courtney Hopper
I think it's like a. Like, self actualization. I think it's more like self esteem.

00:18:58 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:18:58 - Courtney Hopper
You know, like, finding what's making you significant.

00:19:01 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:19:02 - Courtney Hopper
You know?

00:19:02 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, yeah. The significance of life.

00:19:04 - Courtney Hopper
Significance of it, yeah, sure. And you're like, wait. And they're trying to get that significance through you. Right. Because they don't feel it themselves. Or they're like, do you see that I'm significant? Can you make me feel better about this?

00:19:16 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:19:16 - Courtney Hopper
Seeking a lot of external validation. Yeah.

00:19:18 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Which is.

00:19:20 - Courtney Hopper
Because I've done that before. I recognize that. Yeah.

00:19:22 - Dana Kadwell
And I do recognize it. I do. And I've been, like, recovering one upper. You know, like, earlier on in my life, I just needed someone to tell me that, like, what I was going through was something, because you just. You know, sometimes you just feel silent or invisible or whatever. A lot of it's just what I told myself in a lot of ways, but, yeah, it's definitely, like, when I can recognize it so much now, and I. We talk about a lot in our talks, too. Like, one. One thing I do talk a lot about, and one of the keynotes I give is very much about that. Like, that feeling of, why are we proud of, like, why are you proud that you've missed 50% of your kids games? Like, why are you proud of this terrible story about going. Working at wedding a couple weeks after you have a baby? Why are you proud of that? It's so shameful. Yeah, but it's reframing it, and I think a lot of it is because at that time, I think if I had allowed myself to feel shame, I don't know if I could have survived it. It's almost like you had to do it. You reframed it in your mind to justify, because you knew it was a mistake.

00:20:26 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, I just think. I think it is what it is.

00:20:30 - Dana Kadwell
No, I think I can look back on that time specifically, and I talk about this, and most recently, I was rewatching, actually, one of my talks, and I had told myself that nobody could do this event.

00:20:46 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, well, yeah, that's true.

00:20:47 - Dana Kadwell
You know what I mean? And it's not true. So, like, when you. But. So it's not like, oh, I had to do it. Cause I had to do it. It's like, no, I knew in the middle of that event this was a mistake. I knew that it was the wrong thing to do. It was not right. It was not good for my body. It was not good for my child. It was not good for any of this. But yet the way I had to talk about it was I was so proud of it because I was too fragile to admit that I had made a mistake. That cost me a lot.

00:21:10 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:21:11 - Dana Kadwell
In your mind, you just didn't want to, like, believe it, you know?

00:21:14 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. You're kind of, like, reframing it.

00:21:19 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:21:20 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. So you. So it's more palatable, too. Yes, I agree. All right. So many deep thoughts there. I know we talked about selling a business one time. All right. Oh, it's coming. Okay, great. What was your favorite business takeaway?

00:21:35 - Dana Kadwell
I really liked it. I feel like this is all like this, I think, saying the same thing three times, but you have to have at least one hand open to build something. And I think that that kind of goes back to a lot of what we talked about, like, kind of recognizing that you can't hold all the eggs and you can't be the one that holds everything. That if you're holding everything so close to the chest and you're the one that knows everything and is doing everything, you're never going to be able to start something new. And I think that that is very evident in our journey in a lot of ways. And even though we've tried, it's whenever we try to start something new, it takes so long to launch and so long together because our hands are so full.

00:22:11 - Courtney Hopper
You know, we take a long time to do. I mean, he's sitting there talking about, I opened this company in 2018. I sold it. I'm like, oh, my God, that's six years. I've been in business for, like, 20 years. Yes. That is a long time. Yep. And, like, wow, you've reached the like where you built it and got to a plateau, and then someone else wants to buy it after six years. That's impressive. We're so slow.

00:22:32 - Dana Kadwell
No, you're just resistant to change.

00:22:35 - Courtney Hopper
I do think that I have some resistance to change. I am a little more open to change than used to be.

00:22:40 - Dana Kadwell
We could totally have sold Sandy at any point in our journey. At any point we wanted to.

00:22:43 - Courtney Hopper
To who?

00:22:46 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, when I had the conversations, people, I had a couple people that were very interested in selling.

00:22:50 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, we're not there yet. So my business takeaway was that my job is to start things and not grow them. Yeah. Like, I liked the realization. Like, of, yes, it takes some of you to start something. It doesn't have to take all of you.

00:23:07 - Dana Kadwell
Yes. I like to have a caveat with that, is that it's okay if that is your plan, but you have to have an exit plan.

00:23:14 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, yeah, sure.

00:23:14 - Dana Kadwell
You can't just, I'm going to start it and you have to grow it.

00:23:17 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, like, I'm going to start it and you have to grow it.

00:23:20 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:23:20 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, I know. I talk about this all the time. I was. I think Dana was turning 40, and I was kind of thinking through this. I was, like, driving to Meredith one day and I was thinking through all the iterations of my life, like, oh, I was a teacher. And then we did C and D, and then we were florists for a while, and then we had another planning company. We opened a venue. We do speaking. We have a podcast now. I'm going to my adjunct professor career or whatever at Meredith and all the little things in between. I was like, there's been so many iterations of my career and how it's grown, things I've gotten to try on. I feel like Barbie. I can just change my outfit and I'm just a different person. Then it all kind of dawned on me that, like, all of these things are really facilitated by Dana. Like, I had all these great ideas, and then I had this great facilitator, and I realized that as a Enneagram seven, you need a facilitator in your life. And I was like, I'm sorry for you, but I feel like God made you for me. Like, literally, like, as her birthday's coming around, I'm like, I think that's might be why you were invented or made. Why you were conceived was to be my perfect partner. And so what you feel is true. It's valid.

00:24:36 - Dana Kadwell
I feel that you feel that is true.

00:24:40 - Courtney Hopper
Yes.

00:24:41 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. No, but, I mean, I agree. I think that there, and I think there is a part of me that is very much that as well. Like, I like to start things. I don't love to stay in them. I like to see them be successful, but I'm not, oddly. Like, there are certain things that I hold onto. And I think when he was talking about, you have to. When you say something like, you have to decide what level of involvement you want to do. I will always be a sell it and walk away person. Like, because I can't. I can't be involved. I can't watch someone else in my mind, probably destroy something that I put together. I can't, like, watch them make these mistakes or whatever. And even if it's super successful, I'll still criticize the shit out of it. So I just need to walk away from it. But, like, I'll never be the person that'll be on the sidelines, like, ever. That's just not how I am. Which is why, you know, when I think about the whole, like, c and d thing, I was like, I have to step away. Like, I can't be part of it.

00:25:33 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. So that's our messy middle we're going to talk about right now is c and D events.

00:25:37 - Dana Kadwell
It's so messy middle.

00:25:38 - Courtney Hopper
So messy middle. It's successful.

00:25:40 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Messy middle doesn't mean it's unsuccessful.

00:25:42 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, I know. I know.

00:25:43 - Dana Kadwell
It's not the same thing.

00:25:44 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, for sure. Like, I. And I feel like we're especially successful given all of the other people that I'm speaking to in the industry.

00:25:51 - Dana Kadwell
Sure.

00:25:52 - Courtney Hopper
Like, planning wise, like the number of inquiries and bookings. Like, I think I. We have a decent team in place. I don't know how sustainable it is based on our growth.

00:26:02 - Dana Kadwell
It's not sustainable. Yeah. That's what I'll tell you that.

00:26:04 - Courtney Hopper
Thank you. That's what's so difficult is finding qualified people for our level of clientele plan.

00:26:10 - Dana Kadwell
But here's the problem.

00:26:11 - Courtney Hopper
What's the problem?

00:26:12 - Dana Kadwell
The problem is that in order for us to pull the profit we need. Right. There's a volume issue.

00:26:20 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:26:21 - Dana Kadwell
Whereas if you were to isolate it completely.

00:26:24 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:26:24 - Dana Kadwell
Like isolate Sandy and, you know, we don't have the Radford, nothing, whatever. And you had me and you make an x amount of money. Like, so, like, I make what Taylor makes, you make what sterling makes or whatever. Right? Yeah. Okay. Totally livable. Would have been satisfied with that many, many years ago.

00:26:40 - Courtney Hopper
I know.

00:26:41 - Dana Kadwell
Totally happy with that. Right. Like, and with that and what you have in place, there's still a good profit at the end of the year.

00:26:49 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:26:49 - Dana Kadwell
The problem is, is, like, we have to employ these people. And so all we have is this profit at the end of the day. So when you're thinking. When you think about it logically, like, let's say. Let's say you were to sell it to, like, sterling and Taylor, right? They'd be over the moon with that business because they're already making a base salary that's sustainable for their life. And then they're getting these k one profits on top of it. And it's a moving and shaking. It is a great deal. I mean, but for us, in order to make it, the heartache, insurance, all that, all the fucking shit worth it, this number has to be bigger. And so for this number to be bigger, you have to do volume, volume, volume, and it's not sustainable. But for two people, one person who wants to run it totally sustainable because they're already making the money they need to make. Do you know what I'm saying? Because you've created a very successful model for them to go with it and run. And you have the name, and at this point, you're talking about years of them knowing who these people are. So it's not going to be a shock. It's not like, oh, who are you selling it to? That's what I think. I think we're totally in the place where, like, it's not. It's very much not our passion. There's nothing. There is no passion. There is not an ounce of passion for c and D other than the people that we employ.

00:28:00 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I have a passion for the.

00:28:01 - Dana Kadwell
People, but that's it.

00:28:02 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:28:03 - Dana Kadwell
Because I'm not in it. You know what I mean? Like, if I was doing it, yes, 100%, but I don't have that passion for it. Cause I'm not doing it anymore.

00:28:10 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:28:11 - Dana Kadwell
And so, like, on the sidelines, am I over there, like, looking at every picture like, oh, my God, these people look so happy. I'm so excited. I'm like, no, I hope that was a profitable event.

00:28:21 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:28:22 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, is that.

00:28:23 - Courtney Hopper
Hope it was the truth. Yeah.

00:28:24 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's the truth. I hope nothing went wrong. I hope I don't have to have a phone call on Tuesday about.

00:28:29 - Courtney Hopper
And here's the truth. I don't even look at CND's Instagram.

00:28:32 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:28:33 - Courtney Hopper
I have no idea what's on there.

00:28:34 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, I follow it, so I do see it.

00:28:36 - Courtney Hopper
I do follow it.

00:28:37 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:28:38 - Courtney Hopper
Maybe I don't follow it personally. I think I only follow it on Hustle and Gather.

00:28:41 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:28:42 - Courtney Hopper
I don't actually follow any of our businesses personally.

00:28:44 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, no, I do.

00:28:45 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. I still think about it when I'm on my personal one.

00:28:48 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:28:49 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:28:49 - Dana Kadwell
Any rate, so I do think it's.

00:28:51 - Courtney Hopper
Full of hobby horses.

00:28:52 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah. Trampoline.

00:28:55 - Courtney Hopper
Trampoline dancers. Yeah. I do often think, like, what does this Instagram think I am? Like, the stuff that they suggest for me, like, really makes me question myself sometimes.

00:29:05 - Dana Kadwell
It gets really far off, and then it, like, makes me, like. I feel like I just, like, I need to go post some things. Like, you know, that I'm not someone crazy, like, conservative, whatever. Like, stop giving me these things. I don't want to see it because it just. It makes my blood boil. So I'm like, why do you think I want to. Why do you think I want to watch this?

00:29:19 - Courtney Hopper
You know what my Instagram is currently stuck on is wearing versus styling, and I have no idea why, but all I see is wearing versus styling, and I'm like, why? Why do you keep sending me this?

00:29:31 - Dana Kadwell
Mine is very, like, Taylor Swift in animals. Taylor Swift and dog. Dog and cats.

00:29:35 - Courtney Hopper
What?

00:29:36 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:29:36 - Courtney Hopper
Well.

00:29:37 - Dana Kadwell
Cause I save dog and cat funny things for me and Henry. Like, every week, we'll, like, watch funny clips on Instagram. Like, it's a thing we do. So obviously, if you save it, it makes it more like a thing.

00:29:47 - Courtney Hopper
I've never followed anybody that is wearing versus styling. Like, I, like, there's not a single person, but yet my Instagram think this is all I wanna see.

00:29:54 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, we've digressed here.

00:29:56 - Courtney Hopper
We have digressed here.

00:29:57 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:29:58 - Courtney Hopper
Well, that was so good.

00:29:59 - Dana Kadwell
Well, but, no, we haven't finished the conversation.

00:30:01 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, we haven't finished. Okay.

00:30:03 - Dana Kadwell
About C and D. Like, you haven't your opinion of it, of being in the messy middle. What does it mean? So, like, we are very much in the messy middle. So the options here are to scale back and stay small, is to scale up and get big, which we were at one point, and I don't think we let any of us loved that at all. Or it is to exit.

00:30:22 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, I think that there is, like, a viable exit strategy, I think.

00:30:27 - Dana Kadwell
But what would be viable?

00:30:29 - Courtney Hopper
What's viable to you? Like, it's part of it is, like, my perception of money is now skewed. So if someone's like, I want to come buy your company for $350,000, dana probably be like, cool. I'd be like, that's not very much money.

00:30:43 - Dana Kadwell
Well, think about what's the actual profit at the end of the day. And how many years do you have to work at it to make that profit?

00:30:50 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. To make $350,000.

00:30:52 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:30:53 - Courtney Hopper
Not that many are profit take home.

00:30:57 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. It's not. Yes, it is many. Because once you isolate. Isolate all the advertising, the insurance, the payroll, the time.

00:31:09 - Courtney Hopper
I can't wait to our next podcast. We can talk about the Bradford.

00:31:13 - Dana Kadwell
What about the Bradford?

00:31:14 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, no. With our messy metal.

00:31:16 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, yeah.

00:31:17 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. But, yeah. No, I agree. Like, I mean, I do think that, like, it would be. It would be hard. Like, one of the things that he said about, like, getting your books in order. It would be hard to.

00:31:25 - Dana Kadwell
Extracurricular. That's exactly what I thought when you booked that. So difficult.

00:31:29 - Courtney Hopper
It would be so difficult.

00:31:29 - Dana Kadwell
It would be really hard to provide a profit and loss. I mean, I think we could do a very remedial balance sheet on it, for sure.

00:31:35 - Courtney Hopper
Everything in quickbooks is, like, listed. Even though they're, like, same clients, it's still listed as full plan, partial plan, or event management. So you could pull all of that out.

00:31:45 - Dana Kadwell
I just don't know how. I mean, that would be like a. That'd be like weeks of work.

00:31:49 - Courtney Hopper
Sounds horrible. I would probably be the one to have to do it, too. And that also sounds horrible.

00:31:53 - Dana Kadwell
Hire someone to do it, but, yes.

00:31:56 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:31:57 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, I guess we'll see where c and D goes.

00:31:59 - Courtney Hopper
See where it goes.

00:32:00 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:32:00 - Courtney Hopper
Let's report back in a year.

00:32:01 - Dana Kadwell
Okay.

00:32:10 - Courtney Hopper
To learn more about our hustles, visit us on the gram @canddevents, @thebradfordnc, @Anthem.House and @hustleandgather. And if you're interested in learning more about our speaking training, venue, consulting, or our conference coming up, head to our website@hustleandgather.com.

00:32:26 - Dana Kadwell
And if you love us and you love this show, we'd be more than honored if you left a rating and a review.

00:32:31 - Courtney Hopper
This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I'm Courtney.

00:32:33 - Dana Kadwell
And I'm Dana.

00:32:34 - Courtney Hopper
And we'll talk with you next time on Hustle and Gather.