00:00:00 - Courtney Hopper
We hope Labor Day was great for you and restful.

00:00:02 - Dana Kadwell
We know it's Tuesday, but we couldn't wait to share this episode with you.

00:00:05 - Courtney Hopper
So hope you love it.

00:00:06 - Dana Kadwell
Here it is. Welcome to Hustle and Gather, a podcast about inspiring the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I'm Dana.

00:00:21 - Courtney Hopper
And I'm Courtney.

00:00:22 - Dana Kadwell
And we are two sisters who have started multiple businesses together. And, yes, it is as messy as you think, because we know that starting a business isn't easy.

00:00:30 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, we've done it four times. And on in this show, we talk about the ups and downs of the hustle and the reward at the end of the journey.

00:00:35 - Dana Kadwell
In this season, we're talking about the messy middle.

00:00:38 - Courtney Hopper
You know, you have to decide to either grow or scale your business or maybe even take a step back.

00:00:43 - Dana Kadwell
And last week, we talked with Robbie Hardy about reframing failure when you decide you might have to take a step back from your business. So this week, the two of us are talking all about the lessons we learned from Robbie.

00:00:52 - Courtney Hopper
All right, well, that was a good episode.

00:00:54 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I thought it was great.

00:00:56 - Courtney Hopper
I know. All I could think of was, and I wanted to ask her, which I should have, like, what year was it that you, like, left this corporate America and, like, started this kind of journey? And I can only imagine it was maybe, like, in the eighties, like, late eighties or late nineties or late eighties or early nineties. And then I think it's even more.

00:01:14 - Dana Kadwell
Badass to do it at that point.

00:01:15 - Courtney Hopper
It's like, when I think about women in business in the eighties and, like, really, like, kicking ass and taking names or taking a step back or making a stand, like, it was a big deal back then.

00:01:23 - Dana Kadwell
Well, yeah, because they were still trying to figure out, I mean, like, a lot of, like, we talk about, and we talk about, like, the history of women and becoming entrepreneurs or whatnot, it was a very rocky time where they were really told to choose between, you.

00:01:36 - Courtney Hopper
Could have this path or this path. Do you want the red pill or the blue pill?

00:01:39 - Dana Kadwell
Right, exactly. You couldn't do both.

00:01:42 - Courtney Hopper
I know. And kudos to her for picking purple.

00:01:44 - Dana Kadwell
I know. Okay, so do you want to start with our overall favorite takeaway?

00:01:48 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, start with our overall one. I thought she had a lot of just really.

00:01:52 - Dana Kadwell
There's so many things.

00:01:52 - Courtney Hopper
Solid information, and she doesn't sugarcoat it. I love her. Very direct approach. I was, like, I could hear from you.

00:01:58 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:01:58 - Courtney Hopper
And I, like, saw a lot of myself in that.

00:02:00 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:02:01 - Courtney Hopper
You know what I'm saying?

00:02:02 - Dana Kadwell
Well, I feel like that's probably what makes her a really great consultant.

00:02:05 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:02:05 - Dana Kadwell
Because some of the, like, you know, we definitely. I've had, like, conversations with people. I've had. We've had one, like, kind of Vip day with somebody, and then I've had, like, a coach, and my coach did not sugarcoat anything with me, but there's been other people, like, we've had and, like, talk to advice, and they just. They just sugarcoat it. And I'm like, just tell me what you're trying to say in a way you're not gonna hurt my feelings. Please let me know. I know.

00:02:27 - Courtney Hopper
I think when I think about coaching in general. Cause that's what I don't wanna pay for someone's b's, right? Like, tell me straight. Like, show me my blind spots. Like, I'm fine with that. But maybe not everyone kind of processes things that way. But even when I've been coaching a recent person, I was like, look, this is your time to shit or get off the pot. You have to have answers. Do the scary step, and then we can talk about the next thing. But it's kind of like, I feel like she embodies that.

00:02:51 - Dana Kadwell
Well, I think you. I mean, the thing that I've learned with people and just in general in life, and, like, when you're having a conversation and someone's coming to you in some kind of. Whether they want advice or they're trying to, you know, get your opinion about something, I always. I have to ask the question. It's like, what? Do you want me to encourage you? Do you want me to tell you the truth? Or do you just need me to, you know, just support you in it? And then that reaction's very different. So then, yeah, I'll sugarcoat the mess. You're saying, like, look, I just. I've actually already made the decision, and I need you to make me feel good about that decision. Okay, cool. Got it.

00:03:27 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. You know, I feel that way about relationships, too. Like, I have the hardest time. Like, I need someone to tell me straight up. Like, either, like, shoot me straight, give me support, or hold space for me, and I'm like, I only have five minutes of space holding here, buddy. You know? Like, that's how I feel. Like, some of us are better at other things.

00:03:43 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, yeah.

00:03:44 - Courtney Hopper
But anyway, I loved how she just was, like, set it straight. So my overall, like, in just kind of, like, shooting it straight. I think from the beginning, takeaway was the shadow of a leader. And, like, hit me like a gut punch where you're, like, so true, so true. Like, how big of a shadow you cast, and even though you might think that you're hiding it, like, what is it really doing to those people around you?

00:04:08 - Dana Kadwell
I don't think we've ever been someone who didn't, who people didn't know what was going on. I think what I didn't recognize and realize is how much my mental, like, space anguish, upsetness or whatever really created a different environment. And not in a way, not intentionally. Even if you intentionally, like, hey, I'm just not going to come into the office or I'm intentionally going to have this conversation, try to be cheery or whatnot. The fact that it's so inauthentic and the fact that they still understand that you can't hide what's really happening, that impacted how they perceived the vibes of the business. And it was very much just speaking of, like, you know, just recently, the big, we had, like, a big, like, kind of rework or whatever, and a lot of it was just the vibes in the office were off.

00:04:58 - Courtney Hopper
They were bad.

00:04:58 - Dana Kadwell
And, like, we couldn't figure out what the problem was because we were like, we're good. We give you all this shit, like, why are you upset about anything at this point? And then we kept saying, like, oh, like, I know last year was hard. I think it was, I don't know. It was one of our employees. They're like, I actually don't care about that. It happened. It's done. It's over. That's not what it was at all. And I think that it wasn't this moment or this thing that had happened. It was the fact that we as leaders just were in a place, and it did create this really big shadow on everybody, whether they want to attribute it to or not.

00:05:35 - Courtney Hopper
I think, too, when she said it, it also made me think about kind of a little bit of, like, what you were saying in the episode. And I see this as a mother sometimes, too. So, like, I kind of, the two are similar to me where it's like, you do the things and you do the things. You're like, I'm going to take this load off. I'm going to take on this thing. I'm going to do the hard thing. I'm going to take the bad shift. I'm going to do all of these things. And all these things that you think that you're doing to help the employee really just ends up building a lot of resentment in you when they're not responding in a way that you think's appropriate to the tasks that you've done. And then I think it does create this negative shadow. You know what I mean? But you think you're doing the right thing, but actually, you're kind of operating in dishonesty in a lot of ways.

00:06:20 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:06:20 - Courtney Hopper
Does that make sense? Yeah, it kind of made me think about that, and I think about that as a parent, too, like, when you are. I was just telling Dana today, like, recently had a running with my 15 year old about, like, all I do to facilitate his life and how he seemed very ungrateful. And I can take a lot of things, but ingratitude, it's, like, not one of the things that I can really accept. And I feel like it kind of reminded me of that in business. Like, I do all these things. We sacrifice all these things. For years, we paid our employees more. We made sure they had everything that they needed at our expense. And it created this immense amount of resentment because I didn't feel like they were grateful enough and they didn't even understand.

00:06:57 - Dana Kadwell
Right, right.

00:06:58 - Courtney Hopper
Cause it was just. Oh, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. You know what I mean?

00:07:01 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:07:02 - Courtney Hopper
Kind of made me think of that.

00:07:04 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah.

00:07:05 - Courtney Hopper
And even though you don't know, you're putting that shadow out necessarily. It's there.

00:07:10 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I don't know. I just. I think it was. I think, inherently, you know, that as a leader, you have a lot of impact, and we'd say all the time, like, oh, lead by example, and, like, you're the leader. You're the leader. But I don't think I ever heard it in such a great visual term. You know what I mean? Where it was, like, where you can kind of, like. I don't know, like, drives the point home in a lot of ways.

00:07:32 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:07:32 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I liked it.

00:07:34 - Courtney Hopper
Anyway, that was great.

00:07:35 - Dana Kadwell
My overall was. Was take the trip, which I think it was hit on a couple points here when she talked about vacation, and it's important to have, you know, to take the vacation or whatnot. But really, it was the very first thing that she said when she talked about her, like, the beginning of her journey, that she realized she was unhappy. And instead of, like, quitting her job or going into something else, she booked a trip, went to the mountains, and she said Colorado, did the hikes, and kind of cleared her mind and really got to the root of how she felt about it and realized she didn't love it. She was miserable, and she went back and pivoted and changed her career. And I think that that's just so important. And it's hard, I think, at this age when you have kids to take that vacation because your vacations are with your family. So it's as fun. They're fun and they're enjoyable and all that stuff, and they're still a vacation. Like, it's still not working. There isn't that freedom to really clear your mind and really, like, ask the hard questions to yourself as you're looking at, you know, what you find beautiful, what you find relaxing and really being introspective about it.

00:08:43 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, right.

00:08:44 - Dana Kadwell
And so I thought that was a. I think it's just such a neat. Was such a very small part of her story, but I felt like it was. The thing that really stuck out to me is we should be doing that more. And I felt that slightly when we went to actually engage, when we came back from engage, I felt very, very strongly about some things that we needed to let go of, and I felt there was a lot of clarity there. And I think because it wasn't a conference where I'm talking about sales and marketing or whatever, it was very much a. I call it a fluffy conference. Fun, but fluffy. You know, there's not, like, real tangible, like, I'm gonna go back and change my business, but you can say, oh, I'm gonna go back and, like, I can change who I am, how I interact, you know?

00:09:29 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:09:29 - Dana Kadwell
How I move forward in this industry, you know?

00:09:32 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:09:33 - Dana Kadwell
Which I think is important sometimes.

00:09:34 - Courtney Hopper
I totally agree. All I can hear is, you want to go to France with me.

00:09:37 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:09:38 - Courtney Hopper
For our previous conversation, you really feel.

00:09:40 - Dana Kadwell
Like you're gonna have to convince the husband to do that. So it's the biggest thing.

00:09:43 - Courtney Hopper
I got this.

00:09:44 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Okay.

00:09:45 - Courtney Hopper
Sam and I are like this.

00:09:47 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:09:47 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, right. No, I know. I totally agree. Like, I think, you know, one of my friend, my best friend Krista, she's actually really good at this. Like, she is very. She's also a mother of three and she is a writer, but her husband's always been, like, the primary earner. Right. So, like, kind of getting out of the mindset of the value of her position and the fact that she needs to take space and time or whatnot, I've always really admired her ability to be like, no, I need this. I'm going to take the space. And for her to go off for a couple of days multiple times a year is not uncommon. Clear space, reground, get to nominal and work through things. I feel like she's always been a really good example of that.

00:10:31 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I think that traveling is, like, especially traveling by myself, there is a lot of alone time, which I really do appreciate. I don't get it ever, but, like, even. Just, like, Sam never hesitates. I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go to Florida. And he's like, great. Cool. When you going? Like, it's not a question. This is gonna be hard. Whatever. Cause he knows how important it is for me to, like, spend time with Nina and my parents and stuff like that. And he's so, so, so great about that. But I feel like there's this. It's hard. I can always justify it because I'm going to see my grandparents or my grandma, and I'm going to help mom do something, or it's always insane service of somebody else, even though it is for me. Like, when I think about. When I think about it, it's because I don't want to have regrets, you know, later on. But there's never been a thing, like, well, I'm doing this for me. Like, this is what I want to do. Maybe Ireland is that. But, you know.

00:11:26 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, coming up.

00:11:27 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:11:28 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:11:28 - Dana Kadwell
Although it's all family, but taking the whole kiss, which is fun, but I'm just saying, like, it's just. I think that's a hard thing for someone to recognize. And for you to say, this is just for me, there's no altruistic reason. That's not because I want to create great family memories. It's not because I want to go visit a relative that I haven't seen in a while. It's not because it's for work, because.

00:11:45 - Courtney Hopper
It'S maybe what you need.

00:11:46 - Dana Kadwell
It's just what I want, period.

00:11:47 - Courtney Hopper
Or what you want. Okay. Yeah. I had this as a totally a rabbit trail. I was having this conversation with somebody. All my views of parenting and my views of single parenting. Views of parenting are different. Probably because I'm a single parent, right. And I have my kids, like, 80% of the time. So, I mean, I sat down at one point and I was like, hey, we're a team. And there's four of us, so that's 2525-2525 I was like, and sometimes you're going to take up 30, and we're all going to have to absorb the other 70. There's going to be really no time where you're going to be 100%, by the way. Right. Because there's four of us. And I was explaining this to somebody and I was like, because I am just literally not willing to live my life in service to somebody else. I'm not going to give my life and what I need and what I want, nor do I want to model that for my kids in favor of their life and what they need and what they want. And I feel like as moms and especially business owners, we get very stuck in that mindset of, like, we are living our life in service. And I know it's not your whole life, but it's a big chunk of your life, and you don't know when your life's gonna end, right? To this person or these humans or this business or these employees or whatever. And it's like getting out of that mindset that, hey, you know what? Like, my life and my wants and my needs are equally as important as yours. And I would hazard to say, when you're a leader of a company or you're the leader of your family, it's even more important that your needs and your wants are, like, taken care of, because all of that facilitates through you to everybody that you are either employing or you're raising. And it's like, kind of really reframing the mindset of, like, all the things that we've been taught, like, as women, which I loved how she spoke about that, but it's like all that to say, yeah, take the fucking trip.

00:13:24 - Dana Kadwell
Long, windy road.

00:13:26 - Courtney Hopper
But, yes, those are, like, thoughts that I have.

00:13:28 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, but it's so interesting. Cause I don't, and I think that's so true. And it's definitely those I hate adages and stuff like that.

00:13:36 - Courtney Hopper
It's like, oh, you can give me an adage then.

00:13:38 - Dana Kadwell
You can't pour from an empty cup. I'm like, whatever. Everyone can pour from an empty cup. We've all, we've all done it. Like, we've all done it.

00:13:44 - Courtney Hopper
Put your oxygen mask on first.

00:13:46 - Dana Kadwell
Which is total bullshit. I would totally. My kids, I would totally do my kids first because that's just what you think about.

00:13:51 - Courtney Hopper
I know, like, it's because you're gonna be attached and what if I can't get to them? And, like, it'd be weird.

00:13:56 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Like, they, like, would I sacrifice my life for my child 100%? Like, if it was me or them, it would be me all day long. Like, you know? So there's definitely like that. But it was, it's interesting because I remember it was how, I remember when it was a while back and me and Sam were talking, and I was like, I feel like I'm just so needy. Like, I just, I need more time. And I, like, I peace out of the family more often. Like, I'm like, I'm not gonna do dinner with y'all. I'm gonna go by myself and I'm gonna go take a bath or whatever. Which, by the way, he just, like, looks at me. He's like, are you. Do you need to go take a bath? I'm like, how did you know that's what I was thinking? It just makes me so mad that he can, like, read my mind like that, but anyways. And I was like, I just feel so needy. Like, I need so much. And he's like, well, you do the most. And he's like, you need the most rest, like, because of what you do. And it's like, it's so true. Like, if you're, the output you have is so much, like, you need that amount of rest back in whatever shape or form it is. But I was like, this is very introspective of you. But, yeah, he does a lot. He does do a lot. But, you know. Yeah, not as much mental stuff up here, you know?

00:14:59 - Courtney Hopper
I think that's true of most men I know. Yeah, they try really hard. It's true. All right.

00:15:07 - Dana Kadwell
Okay.

00:15:07 - Courtney Hopper
So take the trip.

00:15:08 - Dana Kadwell
Take the trip.

00:15:09 - Courtney Hopper
All right. What's your favorite business? Takeaway.

00:15:13 - Dana Kadwell
I really liked it how she said, you can't fail without starting. And I think failure is something I struggle a lot with. I have a hard time failing. I have a hard time admitting failure, not micro failures. And I think time, like picking the wrong toilet. Right?

00:15:29 - Courtney Hopper
We're dealing with that right now.

00:15:30 - Dana Kadwell
But, like, I think in those, there's moments, there's things that you can't accept. Like, there are failures that I can't accept because I think that I don't care as much about them. Like, they're not things that, like, make me feel like either I'm a bad person or I've hurt somebody else or, you know, I've created discourse or I've lost a lot of money or something along those lines. But if it's any of those other things, like, where, okay, this is created a rift in a relationship or this has created a major profit loss or something like that, then those are failures I have a really hard time accepting. And you hear it all the time, and people try to make you feel good about failure, and it's okay. And I do think failure is a part of life, and I do think you learn a lot from it, but I don't know. I still have a hard time accepting it.

00:16:19 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. I mean, I don't like to fail.

00:16:22 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:16:22 - Courtney Hopper
Like, for sure. But, like, I've accepted that it is a part of trying. So, like, I do want to try things. And so, inherently, if I like to try lots of things, I'm not going to be successful at all of them, so I'm going to have to fail at some of them.

00:16:37 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. I think what it. I think what really where my mind went when she said that was, you.

00:16:41 - Courtney Hopper
Should see my embroidery skills.

00:16:42 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Laughable is where, when you think about something, and I think about this a lot, so, like, you can think about on the large scale, okay, you can't fail in a business unless you start your business. Whatever, everyone. That's neither here nor there. But I'm talking about failures in business. When you've tried something, you've maybe went to a new market to go down a new path, and you failed. And then there is this part of me that, like, I've taken this approach more often is like, when you make a decision, like, okay, for example, let's talk, like, the luxury collection at the Bradford. Right. Like, when we decided to do that, there is something very emotionally invested in that I had in that product. I have no idea why. I don't know why. Probably just the time of life that it was. And so I really did not want it to fail. And I really felt obligated to give it 150% to try all the different avenues to make sure that it was going to be successful or. And then I felt like at that point, if it wasn't, I could. I could honestly let it go, because then maybe it just wasn't a good idea. But now I look at it, and I can look at it from a place of. Okay. And very much what she was talking about, being proactive about it, if this fails, what doors does it open, actually? And as much as I don't necessarily love the doors that it opens, where it's just more bookings and, like, more work at the end of the day. But it is. But the payoff is that it's actually more money at the end of the day to open it up, that you can take out that kind of emotion side of it. So, to me, it's like, if you can start something without emotion, you can fail.

00:18:12 - Courtney Hopper
Emotionless?

00:18:13 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Like, you can look at it more as a data point. Like, what was it? I had that thing. It's in Sam's office, says failure is just a data point.

00:18:22 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:18:23 - Dana Kadwell
Like, it's just basically, okay, this is on this line, and now we know more information, so we can do something else. Pick something else.

00:18:31 - Courtney Hopper
Like, for me, failure, it's like, when I think about big overarching fails, it's, like, the value of time to me. Like, I think, and I think, one, if you're not reading Dana's medium, you should. Dana Cadwell.

00:18:44 - Dana Kadwell
It was good.

00:18:45 - Courtney Hopper
Like, the last one about turning 40 and, like, speaking about time and, like, the value of time, like, for me, it's that, like, I recognize that I'm not 20 years old anymore, starting a business. I recognize that, like, time is fleeting. Like, three years from now, I'm gonna have a kid in college. Then I'm gonna have another kid that's driving that I'm gonna be, like, praying for, and I don't even pray, but praying for. Cause they're on the road, you know, or whatnot. And, like. And, like, this time is finite. So, like, when I think about starting something and, like, we're starting something small, like, right now, like, with our conferences, like, venue conference, I'm gonna do an entrepreneurship conference, because I think, for us, community is really important. Like, getting back to the community mindset that we've always kind of had, I think is important, but it is something that I weigh, like, is it worth the time investment? Like, isdev? And I do think that that is, like, a. I recognize the privilege in saying that, like, oh, hey, I could start this thing. And I can recognize that, yes, I can fund it, and that's fine. I'm not even thinking about the financial implication of it, but I am thinking about how much time is it gonna take away? And is that time well spent to me? Is there value to it? And so if that fails and I've lost time, I feel like, ugh, I could have been doing so much more with my time.

00:19:58 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. And I totally agree with that. And I feel that way about lots of things, like failures of a day is. Cause I've wasted my time or whatever. But sometimes I think, too. Like, when I think about. I think where I have the biggest heartburn is when I've been forced to do something that I didn't want to do and that has failed, then it really pisses me off because I've wasted my time. But I can look at things, like, say, this new venture, and we're obviously going to try it, and hopefully it's successful, but I feel excited about it. How did you feel about it? Telling Sam was like, it's exciting to plan it. It's exciting to think through it, and. And it just fits so much more. It's like the puzzle piece that's. I feel like that's been missing because we love helping other people. We love consulting and whatnot, but we're not business coaches.

00:20:41 - Courtney Hopper
Like, we don't have time for that.

00:20:42 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's not that we don't have time for. It's just. That's not where. That's just not who we are. We're like, I don't want to say this because I don't want to offend any business coaches, but I feel like we're just too humble. I don't know the way to. You know what I mean? We just don't believe enough of ourselves.

00:20:58 - Courtney Hopper
The fact that you just called yourself humble negates the comment. Just want to say that.

00:21:02 - Dana Kadwell
I know, but you know what I'm saying, though.

00:21:04 - Courtney Hopper
I'm just saying.

00:21:05 - Dana Kadwell
You know exactly what I'm saying.

00:21:06 - Courtney Hopper
Humble people don't say that.

00:21:08 - Dana Kadwell
I know, but, like, I recently was at a conference, and it was very littered with business coaches. There's so many. Right.

00:21:14 - Courtney Hopper
I love that word littered.

00:21:15 - Dana Kadwell
That's good. And it was like eating lunch, and I happened to be at a table with, like, five other business coaches, and there was two people who were not business. They were, like, actual attendees. Right. And it was so exhausting being at that table.

00:21:30 - Courtney Hopper
Sounds horrible.

00:21:31 - Dana Kadwell
And then they were asking me what I did, and I was there as hustle and gather, and I was like, I own a venue.

00:21:40 - Courtney Hopper
I'm just one of you.

00:21:42 - Dana Kadwell
Because at the end of the day, I am not gonna get up there on stage and tell you I have figured it out. I go on vacation every single week. I don't check my email. And you can have this life, too. Cause it's fucking bullshit. Like.

00:21:55 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:21:55 - Dana Kadwell
You know? Yeah, it's just not true.

00:21:58 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:21:58 - Dana Kadwell
I don't know how we got to this conversation, but all that to say is, I don't think that about all. I've encountered amazing coaches. I can give you some great recommendations who start like that. Yeah, but there is definitely that. I won't say, but I don't like.

00:22:21 - Courtney Hopper
Failure as a coach. Like, I have coached people, and I'm like, this is a failure. I don't like wasting people's time and money, just like, I don't like wasting my time and money. So just because you can spend the money with me doesn't mean I'm going to benefit you, and I hate that.

00:22:33 - Dana Kadwell
Okay, so that's probably not predatory like that. No, but that's exactly. That's not the mindset you can have if you want to be a business coach.

00:22:39 - Courtney Hopper
I know.

00:22:40 - Dana Kadwell
Because everyone I've talked to is like, oh, yeah, that just happens. That's just what it is. But it. Go ahead.

00:22:43 - Courtney Hopper
Frustrating.

00:22:44 - Dana Kadwell
How can you. How. How can you go into the next one knowing, like, oh, this person, they're just getting my money, but, you know, they're actually not gonna listen to me. Like, I don't wanna do that. Yeah, I'm not interested in that.

00:22:53 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:22:54 - Dana Kadwell
Like.

00:22:54 - Courtney Hopper
Like, I feel like I'm not affecting any change, which is why I love the vip days.

00:22:58 - Dana Kadwell
Cause it's like, what's your problem? Let's fix it together. We're gonna fix it right here, right now, you know?

00:23:02 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. And.

00:23:03 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:23:03 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:23:04 - Dana Kadwell
For sure. So.

00:23:05 - Courtney Hopper
Well, my business takeaway, and we've already kind of talked about this, was so we can probably bypass a little bit, but hanging onto the hard stuff, like, when she said, you don't take the trip, or you, like, make everything perfect because you are kind of doing the hard stuff and they don't get to grow.

00:23:21 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:22 - Courtney Hopper
Which I think, again, is true. Like, I totally agreed with that. And I think we have operated in that way a lot in our business. We're like, we're gonna do the hard things, and we're gonna take the hard path, and we're gonna put ourselves second, you know? And then it does foster again, like, that terrible cycle of just, like, lack of appreciation and resentment and then not really understanding even what your job is.

00:23:45 - Dana Kadwell
But do you ever just think back to, like, when I think back to that time, I think back to. Cause, like, when I. When I. When you're talking about this, all I. My visual is us up above the ballroom. That's where our office was. Right? That's what I think of. I think of us doing all the hard things all the time, putting in the most work, the most hours, making the hardest decisions, doing the worst jobs, all of that stuff. And then I can stand there in this memory, and I can look around and who am I surrounded by? Right? Who are my employees at that time? And it makes sense why I felt that way and a lot of it for us, like, where we created relationship with our employees, not as a boss, but as friends and as equals, and they were never equal. And they felt like they were equal.

00:24:34 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:24:34 - Dana Kadwell
And because they felt like they were equal, we felt like we had to do the hard things because we needed them to. It was, like, our way of, like, showing that we cared about them in some way. And so we kept that attitude for a while. And then, like, now, when I can think about, okay, we don't. We don't do the hard things anymore. Sometimes we do. Right. There are things that we just have to handle, and we handle them. But for the most part, we, the team, really handles a lot of the hard stuff, and we haven't been afraid to let go of, you know, still learning, but most of that stuff, and I look around now, and I know why I can do that. And so when I think about it, it's. Part of it is personal, but I also feel like a lot of it is. Who is it around you that's making you feel that way?

00:25:17 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:25:18 - Dana Kadwell
And I can say that there are times when it's been all me that's made myself feel that way. Like I've been the one that says, oh, no one can do what I do. I'm gonna be the martyr or whatever. But then there's times where those feelings are 100% valid, because that person that you're looking at, you're having the conversation with is looking at you saying, like, what, you don't think I could do this better? And you're like, okay, so you know what I mean?

00:25:39 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I do know what you mean. Yeah.

00:25:40 - Dana Kadwell
Like, and that's all I think of in that. That's all I think of when I think about that, is like, there is a reason why it was our fault for sure. Like, we created a relationship that way.

00:25:50 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, yeah. It's hard to understand where you're gonna be and start off on the right foot. Like, there's so many reiterations of who you are as a boss between starting in the trenches and kind of because especially when you're in the service industry, it's you. You're selling this service and yourself. And as a venue owner, it's kind of like hybrid. It's a product, but it's a service. So it's kind of you as well. And it's hard to start out in a way that is with people that are sustainable. You have to almost look at them as transient.

00:26:18 - Dana Kadwell
Oh, for sure. That's exactly what I was going to say. That's why you think about people who started. There's very few businesses that have the first iteration of their people. I know, because I think it is hard for them to see you as in any other light than the flailing business owner. There's not respect there. Yeah, I know, and that's a lot of it, really. It wasn't even the respect of person, but respect of the business. At the end of the day, respect of how it got to where it was. And then when you have someone there for so long. They feel like they put in just as much hard work as you did. And I think that's the hard part, too. It's so funny. So I was talking to totally digressing or whatever where I was at a game, and I was talking to a parent who I know somewhat well, and they own a business with a family member, and it's like, it's a side iteration of the business, right? And this family member owned the original big business, right? Like they're the one that made all the money, they put in all the capital, all that stuff. Well, they felt like this person what really wasn't in this other, like, iteration of the business, but they own 51% of it, so they own 51% of profits, all this stuff, whatever. But they don't work at all. They don't, they don't, they didn't grow it anything. They were just basically, like investors, the investor, the financial backer of it, the name, all that stuff. And this person, they're unhappy, and they really want to break off and do their own thing or whatever, and we're talking about it, and she's like, what would you do? And I was like, well, you need to look at your operating agreement. How is it that you guys were going to dissolve all that? And it was family, so it's all loose? And I was like, well, you've kind of shot yourself in the foot here. And she was just like, well, it's just not fair. It's not fair that this person is going to get all these things and, like, we don't, we won't get the capital that we, or the assets we've, that we've acquired from it. And I was like, well, did you pay for the assets? Like, was, did you take your paycheck and pay for the asset? And she's like, no, the business did. And I was like, then the business owns it.

00:28:21 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:28:21 - Dana Kadwell
And there's like, this really, like, circular conversation. And I can tell, like, I was.

00:28:25 - Courtney Hopper
Treading sitting by this person again and again.

00:28:27 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, no, it was, it ended fine.

00:28:28 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:28:29 - Dana Kadwell
And I was treading lightly on it. And, you know, and I knew that she wasn't going to understand what I was saying, so I just kind of like, whatever, listen to it. But it made me really think about how many people, and it just, like, brought me back. It brought me back to, like, 2017. 2018. And I have these people here who are, like, trying to, like, basically, quote unquote, take our business because they're booking stuff on the side and you know what I mean? And it's like, and I wanted to say to that person, like, you have every right to say, we work this much. We want to change the percentage of partnership. You have every right to have a conversation about changing the way it's structured, all that stuff.

00:29:08 - Courtney Hopper
And I can agree or disagree.

00:29:09 - Dana Kadwell
Sure.

00:29:10 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:29:10 - Dana Kadwell
And they can agree or disagree.

00:29:12 - Courtney Hopper
Right.

00:29:12 - Dana Kadwell
But if your decision, you guys can't come to a mutual agreement and you want to walk away from it, like, and say you want to open your own thing, you are entitled to nothing from that person. Absolutely nothing, no matter what you. And even I said, if you can take your clients with you because it's not in your operating agreement, then what's stopping you? And for her, it was just the principle of the matter. They built it. They did this. Yeah, but you would have nothing if it wasn't for that person. You wouldn't even be anywhere near you are if it wasn't for that first business person, one injecting the money, one having the client list, one doing all this stuff, one training, you had to do it. And there's just this inability of value that people see in entrepreneurs. And to me, when you look at an employee like that, like, that is where it all fails.

00:29:59 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:30:00 - Dana Kadwell
And that's where we'd, like even this past kind of shake up. I remember we sat down with employee, and I was like, can you tell me that you respect me, you respect my business, you respect what we've done, and you're not gonna question it like that. We deserve what we have. And if you can say yes to all those things, then, like, we're fine. But if you have any hesitancy. Yeah, it's a no. It's a no go, you know?

00:30:23 - Courtney Hopper
Right. I do think. I do think that that is like, the plight of an employee, for sure. Like, if you're giving all these hours.

00:30:30 - Dana Kadwell
Yes.

00:30:31 - Courtney Hopper
Which obviously you're being paid for, like, compensated for, and you're seeing this business grow kind of on your labor. On your labor. So then you. I think it does get a little, like, murky in the middle of it. But at some point, and to your point about the, you know, investor or whatnot, like, no one invests money not to get a return on their money.

00:30:48 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:30:49 - Courtney Hopper
It wasn't like a donation.

00:30:50 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:30:51 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. So, like, at some point, your business grows to that point and you went out and, like, if you have made enough such you can buy out the investment with whatever percentage that he wanted to make or they wanted to make, then buy it out.

00:31:01 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:31:01 - Courtney Hopper
That's the cost of it.

00:31:02 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:31:02 - Courtney Hopper
You wouldn't even have a business if it weren't for that.

00:31:04 - Dana Kadwell
Right, right. And so I then so, and I think my point is to all of that is like, it's hard when you have an employee who expects you to always do the hard things and. Or be in the trenches with you. And I think that was our mantra for so long. We want to be in the trenches with you. We want to dig this hole together. And it's like, no, I actually put all this work in because I don't want to dig this hole. You can go dig the hole.

00:31:30 - Courtney Hopper
I dug the hole.

00:31:31 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, I dug lots of holes.

00:31:33 - Courtney Hopper
You're just refining it.

00:31:34 - Dana Kadwell
Every time I see those trees that are like 40ft tall, I'm like, I put you in the ground.

00:31:38 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah, I know. I think that, too.

00:31:40 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. Okay. That was very long.

00:31:42 - Courtney Hopper
That was very long.

00:31:43 - Dana Kadwell
All right, personal favorite quote.

00:31:48 - Courtney Hopper
So mine was like, everyone's not looking at you.

00:31:50 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, that's good.

00:31:51 - Courtney Hopper
I thought that was so good. I just loved her beginning of her talk, when she was talking about what women bring to the table and how we have the need to feel validated based on our research and what we've done and that everyone's looking at you and what's the worst that could happen. I think that that's so true.

00:32:09 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:32:09 - Courtney Hopper
I mean, I can say this 100% as a divorcee. No one's looking at you. No one even cares. I mean, I'm not saying to the effect that no one's supportive or whatever, but no one thinks any differently of you. And in your mind, it's this really big, huge thing. You think, I must have a letter, scarlet letter or something around my neck that everyone can see. No, they don't. No, but you think that, like, when you're going through it, and I just think that that is like a really. Just a good personal mantra. No one's looking at you.

00:32:40 - Dana Kadwell
I think it's a holdover from middle school. Like, I've had this conversation with Ada so many times, like, how she's like.

00:32:46 - Courtney Hopper
They are looking at you in middle school. And that's true.

00:32:48 - Dana Kadwell
No, actually, I don't think they are.

00:32:49 - Courtney Hopper
Other 7th graders you think are.

00:32:51 - Dana Kadwell
No, I think they are so concerned with themselves because every single person is concerned with themselves that they don't notice anything else about anybody else. And I say all the time, I was like, no one's actually noticed that your hair is frizzy this morning because they're worried about their own frizzy here because it's humid outside. Right. Like, and I think it's just, you know, ingrained in us at this, at that puberty age that everyone's always judging us and looking at us and. Yeah. And honestly, probably because we did get judged at one point, we just assumed that's how everybody is.

00:33:19 - Courtney Hopper
But it's like, I did get judged in middle school.

00:33:22 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:33:22 - Courtney Hopper
Because we had. I went to a, like, fifth through 9th grade, like, private school, and we had to all get changed in the gym. And they used to make fun of your boob size or the bra size.

00:33:33 - Dana Kadwell
I still do.

00:33:35 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, well, yeah. I mean, like, it was brutal. And I was like, can we please just not get changed with the 8th graders? Like, it just wasn't fair. Like, the fifth grader, all the girls went to the same gym, same time, and I was like, yes, I look different than you. You are four years older than me. Like, in puberty, you know, but it was, like, so much shame.

00:33:54 - Dana Kadwell
That's funny.

00:33:54 - Courtney Hopper
I know. What was your personal takeaway?

00:33:56 - Dana Kadwell
That the path to making decisions isn't magic.

00:34:00 - Courtney Hopper
Like, this sounds like something Dana would say.

00:34:03 - Dana Kadwell
I know, but, like, I feel. I know we were talking about this, actually in the car on the way here. How, like, when you talk to people sometimes and you're like, it just seems like common sense, you know? But I think everyone wants this order of operations in life. Like, you do this and then you do this, and then you do this. And if you get to this crossroads, you. And this. And this is the truth, then you're going to go this way. And if you get to the crossroads and this is truth, then you're going to go this way. Like, it just seems, like, very formulaic in a lot of ways, or you want it to be. And when you're making decisions, it's like, oh, okay, how do I feel about this? What's my gut instinct? And I've never trusted any of that. So I'm just like, people are like, oh, what's your gut? I'm like, I don't know. It's hungry. I don't know what it's telling right now. Let's eat some pasta. But I think it's just really reassuring to know that it isn't magic and that there isn't this perfect way to make decisions. It just is what it is. And sometimes you make great decisions, and sometimes you make really terrible decisions.

00:35:05 - Courtney Hopper
It's true.

00:35:06 - Dana Kadwell
And it's just life.

00:35:08 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:35:08 - Dana Kadwell
You know?

00:35:09 - Courtney Hopper
It's not reassuring, by the way.

00:35:11 - Dana Kadwell
No, but I think it's reassuring because I think it's the human condition. I think it's every single person. So sometimes when you think about it, like, oh, you made a bad decision. You're like, oh, my gosh, did I miss the signs? Did I not? And you certainly can go back because hindsight's 2020, whatever, and like, oh, I should have seen XYZ. And you say it all the time, like, I made the best decision with the information that I was given at the time. Right. And I think that is the truth. And I think it's maybe even if you look back and say you had all the information but you didn't have like, the perspective or you didn't have what the future was gonna be or you didn't have the reaction of that person or you made the best assumptions, you know? And everyone makes assumptions. Like, that's just how you make decisions is you are assuming by making this decision that going to go in this direction. Right? And I think that when you make a bad decision, you realize it. You were like, oh, my God, what did I miss? And then you go back and beat yourself up. I missed this and I missed that and I missed that and I should have seen this and I should have done this and I should have had this much time and I should have talked to this person and you know what I mean?

00:36:16 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. I think decisions are hard and I think we hold ourselves to a high, like, impossible standard. And then I think it's like, then reiterated by social media and everything that's out there looks that it makes it appear that everybody else is making better decisions than you.

00:36:30 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's all fake.

00:36:31 - Courtney Hopper
It's all fake.

00:36:32 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:36:32 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. All right, we're gonna talk about our fuck ups of our businesses because we've been in the messy middle several times. And as Robbie said, it's gonna happen over and over again.

00:36:41 - Dana Kadwell
So let's talk about. Yeah, so we're gonna pack. Yeah, so we're gonna, we're gonna pick up new a business. Each kind of conversation with sisters. And this one since we talked about bush impact. So we're gonna kind of approach like, what our fuck ups with this business was.

00:36:54 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:36:55 - Dana Kadwell
So we talked a little bit about it.

00:36:57 - Courtney Hopper
We did. And I think that. I think just to give like some background story we started, we never set out to be a florist.

00:37:03 - Dana Kadwell
Right.

00:37:04 - Courtney Hopper
So we just happened to be like, right around that recession time where like, no one had any money to spend on anything. And we had a client that asked us if we could put some flowers in a vase.

00:37:12 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. And we said they're still married. It was at the cafe Luna.

00:37:15 - Courtney Hopper
Oh, really?

00:37:16 - Dana Kadwell
I love it. Remember, it was like the orchids, and it was like orchids and water, and it had, like, hydrangeas.

00:37:21 - Courtney Hopper
And they gave us a picture of how they wanted it to look in a formula. I think they gave us the flowers and we charged them, like, $10 or something to put it together.

00:37:28 - Dana Kadwell
I don't remember.

00:37:29 - Courtney Hopper
It was ridiculous. And it was successful.

00:37:31 - Dana Kadwell
Yep.

00:37:32 - Courtney Hopper
So we put a few hydrangeas and vases for a couple of weddings. And at one point, a bride said, can you make my bouquet? And we were like, ooh, can we make a bouquet? I think we can make a bouquet. So we made this bouquet. And thus began bushel and peck. Literally, that is how it started.

00:37:48 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. And then it be, then it really evolved into, at this point, we were on the path of looking for land and all that stuff. And we needed capital, we needed money. And bushland Peck funded Bradford honestly.

00:38:01 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Like, because we were able to add it onto our packages and made us more sellable as planners and we could add this florist on and whatnot. And so it got us to the Bradford. And then I think our real fuck up was once we started the Bradford, like that, getting through that first year, we should have just ended it. Like, it was a lot. It was to, like, juggle at that time. And I think that if I were to look back, it probably took away from things we could have been doing with C and D and the Bradford.

00:38:25 - Dana Kadwell
But there was a lot of fear of not having enough money.

00:38:28 - Courtney Hopper
Yes, there's always fear.

00:38:29 - Dana Kadwell
So, like, to me, think about failure is obviously not, you know, ending it, but is the failure of really falling into that scarcity mindset which we lived in for probably the first four years of the Bradford, very much of a scarcity mindset.

00:38:41 - Courtney Hopper
Like, I personally still, like, struggle with that. Like, on some very small level, I know tend to operate a little bit more out of fear and scarcity of, like, we must have the reserves, as opposed to just like, this is going to bring us so much more.

00:38:57 - Dana Kadwell
Sure.

00:38:57 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Like, if I spend this reserve, I can make this money.

00:38:59 - Dana Kadwell
I mean, you have to make good business decisions. You just can't be like, oh, whatever, I don't have a scarcity in mind, so I'm going to spend all my money. But it's more of like, okay, like, but can you look at it from a sense of, to me, when I think about scarcity mindsets, holding on to something that really isn't what you should be doing because you're so afraid of losing whatever is attached to it as opposed to thinking about what you could gain from it.

00:39:23 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:39:24 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, for sure. So then, like. So then it moved forward, and we did it together, and then we hired somebody, and they took it to a whole different level. I felt, like, of design and whatnot, and then that was fine, and then that just became too much for that person.

00:39:38 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:39:39 - Dana Kadwell
I can't even remember how they left.

00:39:40 - Courtney Hopper
To be truthful, they left because another employee left.

00:39:43 - Dana Kadwell
No, no, no. This is before that one.

00:39:45 - Courtney Hopper
Oh. I don't know why that happened. Yeah, I think it's life.

00:39:47 - Dana Kadwell
I think it was just life.

00:39:48 - Courtney Hopper
I don't remember it being contentious or.

00:39:49 - Dana Kadwell
It wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't at all. And then that person had an assistant, and we hired that person to do full time. And where. And where our mistake here was, and I mentioned it in the podcast, was we did not know how to manage somebody. It was our first real taste of Gen Z, I think. And we did not know how to manage somebody who believed their life should look one way, but their means were different.

00:40:16 - Courtney Hopper
Yes.

00:40:17 - Dana Kadwell
Right. And so we struggled with creating rules and structure because at the same time, we recognize it's a creative. So creatives, you have to handle a little bit differently. Like, you have to give them the space. You know, when I think about, like, our marketing person, we give her the space to be creative. So we don't like dictator schedule as much. And for this person, we approached it the same way, and that turned out to be very bad because she couldn't do the day to day things. And after that, we were like, we're done. We're not doing this again. And then that's when we shut it down.

00:40:48 - Courtney Hopper
Right. We still had, like, 20 weddings. We had to work on the books. So I took over all of that, and I realized that our profit margin was, like, nothing. I was like, oh, my God, she's spending, like, 50% to 60% on flowers.

00:41:00 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:41:01 - Courtney Hopper
Not even her, like, paycheck or, like, any of the pickups or any of.

00:41:04 - Dana Kadwell
The supplies, which you can look at it from a perspective of, like. And where. And this is another, if you were to across all the brands, where the fuck up was is we had one, and we still actually do one bank account.

00:41:16 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:41:16 - Dana Kadwell
And so it was really hard, and we had one quickbooks that everything was really hard to track where it was coming from, profit and loss. And it wasn't until we got a handle on it. And we now have a bazillion and a half spreadsheets. For all of the things, right. That you could really figure out where that profit and loss was. And so once. And that was. That was us. We had blind face. We did, in people.

00:41:38 - Courtney Hopper
Well, she told us it was a different number.

00:41:40 - Dana Kadwell
Yes. So what she would. What she would report was very different than what actually was, because the person couldn't do math. Yes, yes. Well, no, it was just. She know what happened is she just took the profit from the flowers to the cost. Not, like, the labor, not the hard stuff, not the. Like, all the other shit you have to buy, other than just the flowers, right. All the new glassware, all of that. Like, it's just so expensive, so insane.

00:42:05 - Courtney Hopper
But, yeah, but silver lining. We now actually live and work in our office. Our office. Where we live in, like, where our office lives is the flower cottage. So we put this cottage. I remember Dana because it was, like, right after we bought this cottage and fitted it for floral, she was like, I am so mad about this fucking flower cottage. And we're not doing flowers. I'm like, all right, well, this will be our office. So Dana and I now work out of the what once was the flower cottage.

00:42:34 - Dana Kadwell
Very quiet.

00:42:35 - Courtney Hopper
It's very quiet. And we're separate from the rest of the office.

00:42:37 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, it's nice. Yeah. But such a fuck up. It was.

00:42:40 - Courtney Hopper
It really was.

00:42:41 - Dana Kadwell
But if you take. What did we learn? We learned that it's okay to let things go. And we know. And if you think about it, genuinely, truly, you know when to let something go.

00:42:49 - Courtney Hopper
Some things just serve you for a season.

00:42:51 - Dana Kadwell
Yes. And that's fine.

00:42:52 - Courtney Hopper
It's fine.

00:42:52 - Dana Kadwell
And then I feel like we. It really taught us how to. To stop trying to be friends with people that we employ and, like, really be managers.

00:43:01 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah. Like, it's. It's equally as important, the person, like, your management personality to who you're managing as to who you. Who you employ, their personality, how they relate to you. Like, it's more important that you can manage them than it is that they can stand you.

00:43:15 - Dana Kadwell
And, like. And to me, like, one of our interview questions we ask people is kind of like, what's your philosophy of life? Like, what is it that you're looking for in, you know, in general? Because I do not. I do not manage someone well, just like I said, who their idea of what their life should be is completely unrealistic to what their life actually is.

00:43:34 - Courtney Hopper
Sure. That is.

00:43:36 - Dana Kadwell
Do you know what I mean? Which I think is. And I don't mean to sound rude or mean about it, but I think it's very common in the social media age where there's so this, like, false bill of goods, like, this bunch of lies, like, oh, this is how your life should be. I'm like, no, no, this is actually not how life works.

00:43:53 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:43:54 - Dana Kadwell
Like, you do not live your best life when you're in your twenties. Like, it just doesn't happen.

00:43:58 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:43:58 - Dana Kadwell
You live your most fun life.

00:44:00 - Courtney Hopper
It's fine. It's free.

00:44:01 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah. But you're not buying all the designer clothes and doing all the big trips and all that stuff, right?

00:44:06 - Courtney Hopper
Yeah.

00:44:06 - Dana Kadwell
You're having a great time with your friends over there. Cause you don't have as much responsibility. But those bougie trips and all that fun stuff that happens mid thirties, when you're, like, good in your career and you have saved your money and you've done all the things, live in hostels.

00:44:17 - Courtney Hopper
And hope you make it alive.

00:44:18 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:44:19 - Courtney Hopper
To your thirties, right?

00:44:21 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:24 - Courtney Hopper
Anyway, so good.

00:44:25 - Dana Kadwell
It was good. I really enjoyed that a lot.

00:44:27 - Courtney Hopper
I do.

00:44:27 - Dana Kadwell
Yeah.

00:44:28 - Courtney Hopper
Fun talking to you today. Yeah. To learn more about our hustles, visit us on the gram at C and D events at thebradfordnc at anthem House and Hustleandgather. And if you're interested in learning more about our speaking training, venue consulting, or our conference coming up, head to our website at hustleandgather.com.

00:44:55 - Dana Kadwell
And if you love us and you love this show, we'd be more than honored if you left a rating and a review.

00:44:59 - Courtney Hopper
This podcast is a production of Earfuence. I'm Courtney.

00:45:02 - Dana Kadwell
And I'm Dana, and we'll talk with.

00:45:03 - Courtney Hopper
You next time on hustle and gather.