Maggie - 00:00:00:

He saw a fun flower and he loved it, but then he put it in a filing cabinet. And that's how I felt like the best parts of me went to go die at that job. And I can't imagine balancing that many things and being held accountable to so many people. That sounds crippling to me.

Dana - 00:00:27:

Welcome to Hustle + Gather, a podcast about inspiring the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I'm Dana.

Courtney – 00:00:32:

And I'm Courtney.

Dana – 00:00:32:

And we are two sisters who have started multiple businesses together. And yes, it is as messy as you think, because we know that starting a business isn't easy.

Courtney - 00:00:40:

I mean, we've done it four times. And on this show, we talk about the ups and downs of the hustle and the reward at the end of the journey.

Dana - 00:00:46:

And we love talking with our guests about important topics that we've seen in our entrepreneurial journey. We've covered things like team building and work-life balance so far.

Courtney - 00:00:54:

And now we are talking to some incredible guests on how they have recovered after tragedy. You know, when you simply can't separate life from business. We'll be talking about how to handle those unexpected moments and how to grow and move forward through these experiences.

Dana - 00:01:06:

Today, we have someone we know very well, Maggie Stuart. Maggie's journey started in the winter of 2017 after accepting a full-time position on the venue side of the wedding industry. After moving from Raleigh, North Carolina to Denver, Colorado during the height of the pandemic, Maggie founded her own business, The Ginkgo Method, to serve a community of creatives she had fallen in love with from across the country. After a few twists and turns, Maggie found herself back in Raleigh, North Carolina, and today she is Marie Kondo from Creative Small Businesses Nationwide. She focuses on auditing, refining, and implementing back-end workflows, processes, and systems to better serve the entrepreneur who uses them. She likes to consider her action-oriented approach shaken, not stirred, and believes that a well-thought-out system is one of the most impactful and timeless investments you can make in both your business and yourself. Welcome to the show.

Courtney - 00:01:51:

Welcome, Maggie.

Maggie – 00:01:53:

Thank you.

Courtney - 00:01:53:

A few things. It feels like you wrote that bio.

Maggie - 00:01:55:

No, not at all.

Courtney - 00:01:57:

And two, I love how cryptic we are. Like, Maggie, accepting an industry job in 2017, I would like to just say it was the Bradford. Maggie used to work for us.

Maggie - 00:02:04:

No. I didn't know how forthcoming I should be, right?

Courtney – 00:02:07:

Like, do you want to keep me a secret?

Maggie – 00:02:08:

No, I didn't keep you a secret. No.

Courtney - 00:02:10:

So she used to work for us. That's how we know Maggie. She was our employee.

Dana - 00:02:14:

Yeah, and her job, what you do now, is so fitting based on knowing you and, you know, all the fun things we like to tease you about.

Maggie - 00:02:22:

I think it's hilarious from my perspective. And I can only imagine how funny it is for you guys seeing me from, like, this 22-year-old who showed up at the Bradford one day in December wearing, like, stiletto heels.

Dana - 00:02:34:

You're very cute.

Maggie - 00:02:34:

I was super cute.

Courtney – 00:02:36:

You were so cute.

Maggie – 00:02:36:

But also, like, such baby energy. I had no idea that I'd be wearing, like, overalls and getting in the dirt. And I don't know. Just seeing me from that to, like, this now.

Dana - 00:02:46:

Yeah, it's not like that anymore. They don't have body by the Bradford at all.

Courtney - 00:02:50:

That's right.

Maggie - 00:02:51:

You know what? I was talking to Sarah about this this morning. I was like, that was the best body I've ever had.

Courtney - 00:02:57:

Oh, yeah. So much work.

Maggie – 00:02:57:

I miss it.

Courtney – 00:02:58:

Like setting up weddings, taking down weddings, doing lots of yard work.

Maggie - 00:03:01:

I low-key loved it. I did. Like, it was such a good balance of... Like being mentally engaged and challenged, but also like that physical element. I feel like a lot of jobs don't have that anymore. And I think that's really important for us as human beings. Like I didn't have to join a gym because my job was my gym.

Dana – 00:03:20:

It's true. Absolutely.

Maggie – 00:03:20:

The Bradford was my gym.

Dana - 00:03:22:

So true. It was the skinniest I ever was in my entire, well, not my entire life in the past 20 years of my life. I've been an adult was, um, we all were building the Bradford. My in-laws thought we were starving ourselves.

Courtney - 00:03:35:

Well, we probably were.

Dana - 00:03:36:

Well, like calorie, like intake to output. Yeah.

Courtney - 00:03:39:

We were definitely at a calorie deficit.

Maggie - 00:03:40:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:03:41:

You just never stopped moving.

Courtney - 00:03:42:

You just couldn't.

Dana – 00:03:43:

Like you literally couldn't.

Maggie - 00:03:44:

Question mark.

Courtney - 00:03:45:

No, I do. I was telling this to somebody, like how we, cause it was middle of winter and we all lived together and we all lived together. Like it was a terrible norovirus that like tiny office.

Dana - 00:03:56:

Yes.

Courtney - 00:03:57:

Yes, we did.

Maggie - 00:03:57:

I didn't realize you all were in one house for like a couple months.

Dana - 00:04:01:

Yeah. Like six or eight weeks. Yeah.

Maggie - 00:04:02:

A couple months too long. It is.

Courtney - 00:04:04:

It was one norovirus too long. That's for sure. But it was so dirty and muddy out there. And like, we would just get up and work that we would just leave our clothes like standing outside on the porch. Like you could just, there was so much mud caked on them and so many layers that they would just stand there and you just hop yourself back into the pants and keep going the next day. Like there was no reason to wash them. No reason. Like you would just leave them outside, get undressed and come inside.

Maggie - 00:04:27:

So gritty. And you're like, that's where we come from.

Courtney - 00:04:30:

Those were the days.

Dana - 00:04:31:

Those were the days. Yeah. Yes. Back to the podcast.

Courtney - 00:04:34:

Back to the podcast. So yeah, there was lots of bodies by the bathroom.

Maggie - 00:04:37:

This is going to be an issue for the next however long we're doing this.

Dana - 00:04:40:

Yeah, 100%.

Maggie - 00:04:41:

So getting back to you, Maggie. Do we have a date blocked off for this?

Dana - 00:04:43:

We do.

Courtney - 00:04:45:

Briefly describe your background and how you got started in the hospitality industry.

Dana - 00:04:49:

I think a better question is why, because you were in corporate before. What was it about the hospitality industry that said, I'm going to apply for this job, not knowing anything about it. And then you fell in love with it.

Maggie - 00:05:00:

Do you guys want the long answer to my answers? Or do you want the short answers?

Courtney - 00:05:06:

Whatever you feel like sharing, Maggie. That's what we want.

Maggie - 00:05:08:

I have a lot to share.

Courtney - 00:05:10:

Okay.

Maggie - 00:05:11:

This story's windy, folks. So, buckle up. So actually, my degree is in hospitality.

Dana - 00:05:16:

So. I think I did know that. Yeah.

Maggie - 00:05:17:

Yeah. Like. I was obviously interested in it, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do with it. And At Virginia Tech, where I got my degree, it's a part of the business school. So I think I was coming from the mindset, it's good to have a business degree. And I love people. So hospitality checks out. I was also really interested in weddings, but at the time, like every girl in the hospitality department, like wanted to do weddings. And I don't know. I just, I was like, what would make me different in that? I'm not going to shoot for that. I'm going to do something else. Hence, Insight Global. But yeah, when I graduated, I went to like a career fair and someone literally jumped out at me and asked me if I was interested in Insight Global. And I was like, well, I'm interested in making money. Tell me what you got. And I accepted that job, which is Raleigh. And very quickly I realized it was not for me. It's funny at the time. Hindsight's 20-20. Now I understand why corporate is not for me. I had to do corporate twice to realize that, which I'm sure we'll get there. But at the time, I just knew that something was off about it. And so I quit without a backup job, which my father warned me would be the end of me to how was it now?

Courtney - 00:06:39:

No. Because it wasn't even going to be the last time you did that.

Maggie - 00:06:42:

It was the first and not the last risky thing. Yeah.

Courtney – 00:06:47:

Come on now.

Maggie – 00:06:48:

I have a thing for quitting jobs without backup jobs.

Courtney - 00:06:50:

That just makes sense now.

Maggie - 00:06:51:

Yeah. I like the applied pressure. Something about feeling like you might be on the streets living in a cardboard box and eating scraps really motivates you.

Dana - 00:07:00:

It's fair.

Maggie - 00:07:00:

I don't know if there's a better way to do it, but-

Dana - 00:07:02:

Maybe not.

Maggie - 00:07:03:

That's my way. And I quit, and I knew someone at Insight Global who knew someone who worked for you too. And I was like, what?

Dana - 00:07:15:

And shout out to Leah, right?

Courtney - 00:07:17:

Shout out to Leah.

Maggie - 00:07:19:

That's a throwback. But yes, it was Leah. And I reached out to her, sent her an email and was like, hey, I'm interested in this. Would love to just get coffee. Like I didn't know you guys were hiring for the Bradford. I had no idea. So I met her at Luce at Grace. We sat down, had some, I think it was like curry chicken salad. It was delicious. And we talked and she goes, you know, Courtney and Dana are hiring. Like, these are my bosses. Like, you should apply. And I did. And here we are.

Dana - 00:07:52:

And what's so random is Leah worked for us for like a hot second.

Maggie - 00:07:56:

Really?

Dana - 00:07:56:

Like it was only like six or seven months because.

Maggie - 00:07:58:

I didn't realize that.

Dana - 00:07:59:

Yeah. Like she, and she was a great planner and she was a great at her job. But I think she just realized it's common that like when you're planning your wedding, you're like, oh, I love doing this and it's fun. And she's like, I love doing this. Like, great. And she was super meticulous.

Maggie - 00:08:10:

She was loving the idea of it.

Dana - 00:08:12:

Yeah. And so we hired her and she did a great job. But then she was like, you know what? I don't think it's for me. And so it was really just a season. She only really looked at the season.

Maggie - 00:08:21:

I had no idea.

Dana - 00:08:22:

Yeah.

Maggie - 00:08:23:

So see, it's like all the stars had to align, but I have said this before. If I'd listened to the people who were warning me not to quit, if I'd waited one week longer, I wouldn't have found you guys.

Dana - 00:08:33:

No, not at all.

Maggie - 00:08:34:

It's so crazy to look at your life. I guess we're probably going on five years. December 8th, 2017.

Dana - 00:08:41:

2017.

Courtney - 00:08:41:

Yeah.

Maggie - 00:08:42:

Okay. I have it in my calendar.

Courtney – 00:08:43:

That's six years, by the way.

Maggie – 00:08:44:

Okay, six. That's six years, guys.

Courtney - 00:08:46:

There's no math in that business school degree.

Maggie - 00:08:48:

Yeah, no. I'm really good at accounting.

Dana - 00:08:51:

Yeah, that December 8th of 2017 was the drunkest we had ever been, too.

Maggie - 00:08:55:

Oh, you told me about it.

Courtney - 00:08:56:

It never took either day.

Dana – 00:08:57:

Because we were supposed to have our company party and it got snowed out. And we had already made this entire cocktail of vodka and champagne. And so we decided we can't leave.

Courtney - 00:09:04:

And Campari, which I cannot drink ever again.

Dana - 00:09:08:

It is so sweet. Like...

Courtney - 00:09:09:

It's horrible.

Dana - 00:09:10:

It was not very... No, no, it wasn't. It was a poinsettia. It was vodka, champagne, and cranberry juice. And we had it in a big, like... Like drink dispenser a bit. And so we all, it was me, you, Sam, and I think Mikhail was there at the time. We drank almost that entire thing.

Courtney - 00:09:26:

Because we just took it to Dana's house.

Dana - 00:09:27:

I fully believe that you guys did. And then we played Mario Kart. And then we played Mario Kart all night.

Courtney - 00:09:31:

No, Dr. Mario.

Dana - 00:09:32:

Dr. Mario.

Courtney - 00:09:33:

Sorry, it was Dr. Mario.

Maggie - 00:09:34:

Oh my gosh, guys.

Dana - 00:09:35:

I think you told me this.

Courtney - 00:09:37:

It was a terrible next time.

Maggie - 00:09:38:

In my interview and I was like, these are my people.

Courtney - 00:09:40:

And I'm fairly certain there's Campari in it, by the way.

Dana - 00:09:44:

But that's fine. You're thinking of my 30th and a half birthday. That we had that. And that was also a terrible day.

Maggie - 00:09:51:

Okay. Wait, 30 and a half?

Dana - 00:09:52:

She threw me a 30 and a half surprise party. It's probably.

Courtney - 00:09:55:

Oh, I didn't even know that. You're right. I did.

Maggie - 00:09:58:

Okay. Hot take. I think half birthdays are better than real birthdays.

Dana - 00:10:02:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:10:02:

My half birthday was a blast.

Dana - 00:10:04:

Well, I like mine because it's in October.

Maggie - 00:10:05:

That's a fabulous month to have. I know.

Courtney - 00:10:08:

Stop celebrating your birthday in general. Okay. We are not going to get through this podcast.

Dana - 00:10:11:

We are not going to get through it. Okay. All right. So you worked with us and what the cool thing is, I think for this is that we were replacing our original person. And I remember I looked at Courtney and I was like, I'm so burnt out. I think I did like 37 weddings that year. I was like hanging by a thread and I was like, I really just want, and I don't understand what we're doing at the Bradford. So like, I really just want to like get a handle on it. So like, I want to do sales. We're going to hire this event person who's going to do the events and marketing and we'll be a team. And so it was really funny because there were some things I was like, I need you to be a boss because I'm like, we're a team and I need to be a teammate right now. And I need for you to be a boss at the moment talking to Courtney, you know? But it was definitely a different dynamic, but it was fun. And it was really, it was so helpful for me to understand more about all of

Maggie - 00:11:03:

how the ins and outs of it. I loved our time together. And I had nothing to base it off of. I didn't know all the behind the scenes of you telling Courtney she needed to be a boss, but I just felt like we... We gelled so well and we had this like team mentality. And also I feel like... Working so closely with you and you too, Courtney, but especially Dana, because our roles were like side by side. I learned a lot about how to be an entrepreneur then. Yeah. Because you couldn't help it.

Dana - 00:11:31:

I could see you. I would just start talking to her and she'd be like, hold on a second. She would like bring out this notebook.

Maggie - 00:11:37:

To do now, to do later. It had two sides.

Dana - 00:11:40:

Because I would just, we would just be sitting there and be like, oh, by the way. And I'd just start talking. She's like, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

Courtney - 00:11:44:

She did have this ridiculous notebook that looked like it was something out of the blues clues.

Maggie - 00:11:48:

It was at Target.

Courtney - 00:11:49:

I'm just saying. It literally was set up for me. It was so huge. Yeah.

Maggie - 00:11:53:

I saw it and I was like, I have to have this.

Dana - 00:11:56:

I don't know how to prioritize. You got it all done.

Courtney - 00:11:59:

You did. I did.

Dana - 00:12:01:

All the random ass things. I was like, I think we should do blah, blah, blah.

Maggie - 00:12:04:

It was like a word vomit.

Courtney - 00:12:05:

It was. It's kind of like your VA.

Dana - 00:12:08:

It is. I know. Interesting. I feel like maybe I like. Yeah. You did. It was the inspiration. So yeah, no.

Courtney - 00:12:16:

Getting back to the Bradford, yes. You did work alongside her. I feel like it was like super good time. Like I was like a really good time for the Bradford, I felt like. We're still so small.

Dana - 00:12:26:

Yeah. And so you had gotten the job over Sarah. And I remember that was like such a hard decision.

Maggie - 00:12:33:

I can't imagine for you guys. I know.

Dana - 00:12:35:

And we promised Sarah. We're like, we know we're going to hire in six months. Like we know it. And like, just wait for us. And she did. And then you guys became this amazing team. The blonde hair, blue eyed. Like everyone loved.

Courtney - 00:12:46:

Maggie and Sarah.

Dana - 00:12:47:

Oh my gosh. It was just like everyone loved you guys. But yeah. And it was like the start of really building that team.

Maggie - 00:12:53:

Yeah. It was amazing. Yeah, well, I loved it.

Dana - 00:12:55:

And I loved Sarah. And then you left us.

Courtney - 00:12:57:

And then I left. And the pandemic happened.

Maggie - 00:12:59:

And we thought like- That's when the tragedy started, actually. It started before then, but-

Courtney - 00:13:05:

That's true. That is true. But I remember feeling like you were pulling away,

Maggie - 00:13:08:

like at that point. Like you knew.

Courtney - 00:13:10:

And I remember like even like Sarah was like, she's not here. Like you were checked out. And we knew like you were a foot out the door.

Dana - 00:13:17:

Yeah.

Maggie - 00:13:17:

Yeah. I think it was just like, you know, I was going on year three. And that's a lot. Like at the time, that was a lot. I was getting into my mid-20s. And I was like- my gosh, what am I doing with my life? Like, am I always going to live here? Right. Now is the time to experience other things. And then the pandemic hit. And I feel like that really. For a lot of people. Shook everything up. Yeah. For me especially. That was like the. Oh, now I'm like anxious all the time. Like something's got to change. And so it was a really-

Dana - 00:13:46:

It was a very stressful time to be in a Vincent.

Maggie - 00:13:48:

It was a very stressful time. And you know, it was stressful for me. I can't even imagine what it was like for you.

Dana - 00:13:52:

Yeah, but no, but we're like, we're making the rules and you're, but you're enforcing them.

Maggie - 00:13:56:

Yeah, but people don't know I'm enforcing rules. Like if you say it with a smile and some blonde hair,

Courtney - 00:14:03:

for some reason, people don't know.

Maggie - 00:14:06:

Like it was hard.

Dana - 00:14:07:

It was hard, yeah.

Maggie - 00:14:08:

And it was hard on my heart. It was like one of the hardest things I've ever done, like deciding to leave.

Dana - 00:14:15:

And then we had a conversation on your back porch. I was very sunburned. It's all I ever turn my thing about. So I think I've had blisters on my stomach from being burned at the beach. I remember this very distinctly.

Maggie - 00:14:25:

We showed up as our best selves. We did. We showed up as our best selves.

Dana - 00:14:28:

And I remember we were walking in the door and Korya was like, she's going to quit. And I was like, you think so?

Courtney - 00:14:31:

She's like, yes. I was like, you guys know me well.

Maggie - 00:14:34:

You can read me really well. And you did.

Dana - 00:14:35:

Well, you didn't like quit right there, but you were like, this is my plan.

Maggie - 00:14:38:

Yeah. And I was like, yeah, she's quitting.

Dana - 00:14:39:

But you gave us a lot of time.

Maggie - 00:14:40:

I did. Yeah.

Dana - 00:14:41:

You helped us hire the next group of people.

Maggie - 00:14:43:

It was as much for like you guys as it was for me. Yeah. And like you all. I know I said this in like my goodbye speech, but like you all were my family. Like I don't, I'm not from North Carolina. I'm a transplant, even though it doesn't feel that way. And I think a lot of people don't realize that I'm actually from Virginia. But y'all met me at a very weird time where my family was imploding. This is a perfect transition into the tragedy.

Courtney - 00:15:04:

Oh my gosh.

Maggie - 00:15:05:

Where my family was imploding. And so you guys became my. Rocks my people. So it was very jarring to leave that. And I loved what I did. And I felt like I was good at it. But you were in love.

Courtney - 00:15:20:

But I was in love. Yes. And then my honey. Oh, yeah. I know, boys. That's where it all gets cloudy. The cowboy.

Maggie - 00:15:25:

And we went out to the wild, wild west.

Courtney - 00:15:28:

Yeah, so you left us and went to Denver.

Maggie - 00:15:30:

Yep. To my personal wild, wild west.

Courtney - 00:15:33:

Yes.

Dana - 00:15:35:

Yeah, and then I think this is where we don't really know a lot of the story.

Courtney - 00:15:38:

Yeah, we don't know a lot. Well, I mean, we know a little bit.

Maggie - 00:15:39:

I disappeared off the face of the earth for like two years.

Dana - 00:15:43:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:15:43:

Well, we had the party, and she said, you're not going to lose me. I'm like a fungus. I'm going to keep coming around. And I was like, okay, okay. Which was accurate.

Dana - 00:15:50:

It was true.

Courtney - 00:15:51:

It was like so true. You can't get rid of me. That's right. She went to Denver, and she—because I remember— talking to somebody, like doing a reference for the job you had in Denver, which is like a personal

Maggie - 00:16:03:

assistant to like an executive basically. Yeah. So I was like the head executive assistant for

Courtney - 00:16:10:

executive assistants, but it felt like a personal assistant. It was everything. Cause you made

Maggie - 00:16:14:

smoothies. I did. Yeah. Not well learn that about myself. We are not a chef. We are not. Um, yeah. Yeah. So I, I feel like my life has been just a series of surprises and like. Blessings along the way that I don't know if I really deserve, but these doors have opened for me that I... Looking back, I'm like, that doesn't make sense why that opened, but it did. And I'm so grateful. Like, you guys are one of those.

Courtney - 00:16:41:

Working for the executive.

Maggie - 00:16:42:

Yeah, working for the executive was also one of those things that I feel like. It made no sense why they had to do it. Hired me, but I was very grateful at the time that they did. He was a big real estate development mogul. Like. Had to sign an NDA. There was a private jet that I had to help manage with personal pilots and five homes that I had to help manage. And there was caretakers for each home. He was a very important man with a very big life. And he owned this business, this real estate development company, among a lot of other things. But that's the group that I was brought under. And I was like the number one of the number one. Like. Executive assistant. A lot of people have to work their way up into that role. I was just placed into it. Yeah. Makes zero sense. Yeah. Looking back on it, I think... He felt this little entrepreneurial spirit in me, which was developed by you guys, actually. And I remember him saying in the interview. I think you're really smart, but I have a concern. My concern is that you're going to outgrow this and want to start your own thing. And I said. Because I remember verbatim saying, I feel like there's something to me that could be entrepreneurial, but I see how hard Dana and Courtney work, and I don't ever want to do that. Is like, oh, No! So at the time, call it denial. I said, no, you can trust me. Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. But yeah, I entered back into corporate. And I think what attracted him to me was that entrepreneurial spirit. It's that creativity. I had a therapist put it this way. He saw a fun flower and he loved it. But then he put it in a filing cabinet. And that's how I felt like the best parts of me went to go die at that job. That's not because he was not an incredible person. He's one of the most generous, incredible people I've ever met. He manages himself, his family, and his employees with so much love and care. But It's a big. Life. It's a big job. I don't envy his position at all. I can't imagine balancing that many things and being held accountable to so many people. That sounds crippling to me. And being the person who was in charge of helping him with that was crippling to me as well. And so I went through. A period not shortly, well, shortly after I moved there, where I became very, very depressed and very, very anxious because I was on call 24-7. I was... Learning to live in a new part of the country, which I thought would be easy, but I'd only ever lived in the Southeast. So there's things like, I don't know, grits. Like you can't get grits in Denver. Like that's a comfort. That's a comfort to post in. You know, I'm assimilating to a totally different way of life, like different priorities, different people. It's a very transient city because it's super cool. A lot of young people come and then they leave. So building community, even though my husband is from Colorado, it was... Hard with a life like that, the one I was living. So I remember-

Dana - 00:19:57:

You were lonely.

Maggie - 00:19:58:

I was lonely and I was isolated. I like taken myself, this is my fault, but I didn't know what I didn't know. So that's where I feel okay with it. But it was my fault. I'd taken myself out of my community. And I stayed connected to you all throughout that time. Like we saw you multiple times.

Courtney - 00:20:16:

Oh, yeah.

Dana - 00:20:16:

Yeah. I mean, every now and again, like around holiday time. And we talked about going here and there, but it definitely was not the same. No.

Maggie - 00:20:22:

And I wasn't the same. I was dead inside.

Dana - 00:20:24:

I don't think we even like really knew the depth of it either. Yeah. Like when we talked on the phone a couple of times, like it just wasn't like, I mean, you could tell that you were like saddish, but there wasn't like that darkness of depression.

Maggie - 00:20:38:

I think I'm one of those people that. There's a smile that's always painted on my face. A lot of that's from... My upbringing. Mm-hmm. Because I had to. You know, we learn these things for survival. They serve a purpose, right? These qualities aren't created for no reason. We don't just decide that we want to be fake on the outside, right?

Courtney - 00:21:00:

It's very Southern of you. Yeah.

Maggie - 00:21:01:

Yeah. I definitely felt like a Southerner in Colorado, which I'd never felt like a Southerner until I left the South, but.

Courtney - 00:21:08:

Well, they say, like, Florida's the south. And I'm like, Florida's, like, a northern state. No. Like, you don't actually have, like, that southern, like. Bless your heartness from Florida. It's not until you get to North Carolina, Virginia that you're like, I think that person. And Georgia. I'm like, I think that person's really dissing me. They're really blessing my heart. But it's like that kind of fake, everything's fine, even though it's crumbling inside. Yeah.

Maggie - 00:21:29:

And that's what I was doing, even with my friends. I've learned a lot about that and being. Truly authentically vulnerable and what that looks like. I thought because you could talk about emotions, it meant you were being vulnerable. That's not true. If you're talking about them, if you're analytically being emotional. There's no vulnerability in that, which we can get to there later. But- Yeah, I was crumbling inside. And I remember my boss brought me on this once-in-a-lifetime trip to Todos Santos, Mexico. He had an investment property. At this boutique hotel resort. It was... All paid for, obviously. I flew there on the private jet, obviously. And I'm in the most beautiful place I could have ever been. But I was so depressed it didn't matter. And I wasn't with the people who actually, like, I loved. And I got back from that trip. I was like, this isn't working. Like as much as I want this to work. And as much as I pride myself on being able to grid it through, something here isn't right. And I need to talk to him. So I grew a pair of kahunas. And I sat my boss down and I said, I'm depressed.

Dana - 00:22:43:

And.

Maggie - 00:22:45:

I still want to work for you. Like, I'm good. Like, I'm fine, right? I'm fine, but I'm depressed and I need you to know this. Don't know what I thought would happen. I'm dying inside, but I'm good. Let's keep going as we are. This is like a moment that will forever change the trajectory of my life. He said, no. No. Mm-hmm. Like. Your mental health. Is more important than this job. And I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically the gist. And he said, here's what I want you to do. I don't want you to have to worry about anything. I'm going to continue to pay for you. I'm going to continue to pay you your full salary, which was a lot. Get well. I'm going to pay for your doctors. Whoever you need to see, I'm going to make sure you see them. You take as long as you need. And if you want to come back, there's a place for you here. And if you don't want to come back, that's okay too.

Dana - 00:23:40:

Who does that?

Maggie - 00:23:41:

Who does that? The most generous, amazing man.

Dana - 00:23:46:

Yeah, who cares about his employees?

Maggie - 00:23:47:

Who cares about his employees? And I went into the summer of 2021 just getting well. And it was the best summer ever, guys. It was so cool. Yeah. I. Spent a lot of time out at my husband's family cabin in Buena Vista. I had friends come see me like the month of June and July. It was all friends. A lot of time out in the mountains, a lot of time at like Red Rocks, seeing concert and just like living life and learning how to like take care of myself. And. I understand that that opportunity is not normal. And I understood that at the time, but I think it. Made me realize just how important it is. To do that.

Dana - 00:24:35:

Yeah. So when did you, when did you say like, okay, like, I know I can't go back. Cause it's obviously the part of the job was what was crushing you. And then at the same time you made the decision not to go back to your job. And then you also said, we got to figure out how to get back. Right. Or was it around that same time? No.

Maggie - 00:24:53:

Okay. No. So it was kind of yes-ish. No. So I, when I initially started that, I thought I would go back for a few weeks. I thought I would because I was trained. You see something through. You give it your all. And I felt like because of my depression, I wasn't able to give it everything I had. And so I was curious, like, would I be able to perform? You know, a few weeks in, I realized, no, like, I'm not going back. But I'm also not going to rush this. Like, I'm not going to say, hey, boss, I'm not coming back. So when I realized that I wasn't going to go. I told him that I could come back part-time to help with the transition. I told him I needed some more time, but thought that was my plan. And that's when I started on this. I knew I was being called into entrepreneurship. I didn't know what though. I just knew that. There've been little like breadcrumbs along the way that had led to that. To be given such a big blessing. Mm-hmm. I didn't want to waste it. I didn't want to like deny. What I felt I was being called into because I was scared of it. And I was. I was very scared of it. I saw how hard you guys worked and how sacrificial you were. I admired it so much, but I never thought that would be me. And, um, So I thought I wanted to be a doula, actually.

Dana - 00:26:18:

Yeah, I remember.

Maggie - 00:26:19:

Yeah. And that's when I came back in the month of September, 2021. And I helped some friends out with their kiddos. Cause you always loved kids. I've always loved kids. I love your kids. Your kids are some of my favorite kids on this earth. I just think they bring something out in me that I love. Like I am my best self when I'm with kids and I'm my best self when I'm helping other people. And supporting them. Yeah. In what they're doing. Which is interesting, right? Because that's what I wound up doing. But I... I thought it was child care of some sort. So that's when I came back to Raleigh because... My people were here and I felt like I couldn't find myself or figure out a way forward without being with the people who knew me best. It's so funny how that is like what I thought was going to be the outcome was so not the outcome. Yeah. What I realized that did is I got reconnected with Amanda Honeycutt and I helped her with Ella a few times when I was back in Raleigh. And when I left, I remember I got engaged in October of 2021. And the day after I flew out to Newport, Rhode Island to go sailboat shopping with my dad, he was in the market for a sailboat. And I'm walking. It was in the market for a sailboat. It was casual, right? Casual. It sounds very bougie. And actually, it was really bougie. And I had like this big rock on my finger now. It was like really cool. But I'm walking around the Breakers, which is like this huge mansion. I think it's the Vanderbilts. And my phone lights up. And this is another inflection moment for me. It's Amanda Honeycutt, which her and I talked while I was in Colorado. So it wasn't super weird. And I'd just gotten engaged. So I thought maybe it had something to do with that.

Dana - 00:28:06:

It did not.

Maggie - 00:28:07:

She was like, so. You guys know Amanda. So. I need help with my business. You know, since becoming a mom, like I'm transitioning and. I'm having a hard time like figuring things out and I just need an extra set of hands. I know you are kind of in a... Weird time in your life as well. Like, would you want to come work part-time for me as a VA? Yeah. Like virtually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From Colorado. And I was like, is this even, actually I pulled a classic Maggie and I said, I have to think about it. I knew immediately the answer was yes. And yeah, I said yes. And Yeah. Then I started working with her, and she's just a fabulous person. I just have so much respect for her as a human being. And she's someone who always leads with her heart, which I admire. And is truly vulnerable in the true definition of vulnerability. And, um, I thought, there's something to this. I'm really good at this. This is the part of my job. The Bradford that I love. This is what attracted me to like an EA position and similar in some ways. This is it. And I know there's a gap in the industry right now. It was 2021, 2022, when people were coming back after the pandemic and it was insane. And people didn't have enough people to help. And so. I started Ginkgo Method, which was not Ginkgo Method at the time. But that's the start. And I don't remember what this question was at all.

Dana - 00:29:38:

Well, so then you worked virtually for Amanda. And then how long was that until you guys were just like gave up on Colorado and said this isn't the right space for us. Like we need to get back.

Maggie - 00:29:49:

Yeah. So there were some things that happened with Hennessy's job. That left an opportunity open for us to you know, for him to find a new job. And... We were trying to find him a new job. In Colorado and we hit, I think it was month. 8. Um, And I was like, I feel we're being called back to North Carolina. Because that's really when my business had started to take off. And I was like, there's something about North Carolina. There's something about it. Not just for me, but for you. And.

Dana - 00:30:21:

Right.

Maggie - 00:30:21:

Colorado was amazing. But I said, why do we love it? And he's listing things off. And I said, those are all things that you do on vacation, honey. Like the things that we need as a family to grow our family, to have like security financially, we don't have those here. So what are we doing here? That doesn't mean that Colorado isn't special. That doesn't mean that we don't love Denver and the people there. Like I met some of my best friends there. Shout out, Kylie. Shout out, Nicole. But it's not where we're supposed to build our life. Right. And so he came around pretty quickly. I had this conversation with him in June, and by early July, we were in a car.

Dana - 00:31:07:

Going across the country.

Maggie - 00:31:08:

Back cross-country, 24-hour drive. Yeah.

Dana - 00:31:12:

Back home. Yeah.

Courtney - 00:31:14:

I'd say one thing about this whole story. Yeah. I know it's like— It's so Maggie. Yeah. The story. Because like whenever you were like spiraling and Denver like, oh, it's just Maggie being Maggie and whatnot. But I mean that in the best sort of way because like as you're saying it and like you're hearing it like in a chronological sense, not just like snippets here and there, like as you're experiencing it, like you're very intuitive. Like one of the things that like sticks out to me is your ability to like trust your gut and to jump. You know what I'm saying? And I think that a lot of people. Don't have that. And I think that that's one of the... Best assets for an entrepreneur. I think it's just to be able to be like, hey, I have this feeling, I have this gut feeling. Doubters be damned, I'm going to go for it. And I feel like even your ability to express that to, like, Hennessy and to, like. Bring other people along with your gut, I think is really a skill.

Maggie - 00:32:07:

Thank you. And I feel like it's something you're either born with or you're not. Like you two were definitely born with that. And I was definitely born with that, which it's funny that you bring that up because I've always said that is my greatest strength, and I recognize that's not normal. And I think that is what my... Boss, my Denver boss recognized in me is, okay, this is someone who's intuitive, who trusts her gut. I think he saw that very early on because he had it himself. Like recognizes like. That's why he recognized that in me and I recognize that in you. It's a really beautiful thing. But, you know, tying this all into this whole season, right? Tragedy. That's the thing that was taken from me. Because of some health things that I went through. And... I had an identity crisis because... Here's this thing that I was born with. My dad has always said, Maggie, you have a false sense of confidence. And what he meant was, I don't need permission from anybody else. My gut is so strong. I don't need to check with anyone. Like I know intuitively, heck yes or heck no. And almost immediately, good feeling, bad feeling. And you become really attuned to it. And he calls it false confidence. I don't know what you guys call it, but like. That's the thing that was taken. It's very ironic.

Dana - 00:33:24:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:33:24:

I feel like I can relate to that fairly strongly. I remember Dana sitting across the table from me, even recently, and being like- This was a couple months ago. It was the beginning of this year. Why are you so confident?

Dana - 00:33:34:

No, I said, why do you have such a strong sense of- Wait, what was it?

Courtney - 00:33:39:

It's like basically, I don't understand why you have such a strong sense of confidence.

Dana - 00:33:43:

No, so why are you so self-assured?

Courtney - 00:33:43:

And I was like, I don't know. Like I was literally born this way. Like I can't explain why it is or what it is, but I was literally born this way. And like, I can't shake it.

Maggie - 00:33:54:

And I've always admired that about you. And I've actually had people comment to me about that in you. And I was like, yeah, she's always been like that.

Dana - 00:34:00:

Because it comes across sometimes as intimidating to people.

Maggie - 00:34:03:

It does. But the way I've heard it is I really admire that. And I was like, same. Because I think you take it to a next level. Like I have it, but you're next level because you've been refining it for 20 years.

Courtney - 00:34:15:

But one of the things, like getting to like the topic of our podcast here, like tragedy, is that is one of the things like when I was deep in it, like thinking around like 2017, 2018, because you were there in some of my really dark times in my marriage, is I lost it. And I looked in the mirror and I'm like, who the hell are you? Like, I didn't even recognize myself. And like, why am I so timid? Like, why am I tiptoeing around Dana? Why am I tiptoeing around this person? That's not who I am. Like, literally, it was not who I was. And it was at that moment that I was like. Fuck this. Like I'm making changes. And we had like the year of Courtney. I'm sure you remember

Maggie - 00:34:51:

this year. I was there for that. I was there for all of it, ladies and gentlemen. But it was like

Courtney - 00:34:57:

when I was like in my deepest, darkest spot mentally is when I was gone. And that's what triggered me. It wasn't necessary. It was, it took that. Lack of confidence in like my steps. And I was so unassured and like, what is my next step? Like, why am I questioning everything that I realized? Oh, I've lost myself.

Maggie - 00:35:13:

I'm curious what helped you get that back. Because I feel like it doesn't happen overnight, right?

Courtney - 00:35:19:

No, it did not happen overnight.

Maggie - 00:35:20:

You were so in a black hole.

Dana - 00:35:21:

But it was a roller coaster because— It was a roller coaster. It was years. It was years. Well, but it was—that happened. They got separated. You slowly started seeing this Courtney emerge of who she really was. And, like, you know, the Courtney that—not that, like, you ever, like, were someone I didn't recognize. But, like, more of, like, when I think back to my childhood and my sister, like, that who I always call an asshole, right? Like, just, like, so, like, just—

Courtney - 00:35:50:

This is what Dana calls false confidence is asshole, by the way.

Maggie - 00:35:53:

I'm sure my sister would call me an asshole.

Dana - 00:35:55:

Because it's very—it's hard. It's hard to be in a relationship—like, in a close relationship with somebody like that because— there is no question, right? And so it feels sometimes like, well, there's no consideration for anybody else because you're just doing whatever the fuck you want to do, you know? And-

Courtney - 00:36:12:

You should probably have Taylor on this podcast. That's where like in this new relationship and he's like, why are you so confident?

Maggie - 00:36:19:

He should listen to this.

Dana - 00:36:20:

I know. So-

Maggie - 00:36:22:

Tell him everything he needs to know about you.

Dana - 00:36:24:

So you started seeing that and then they got back together. Yeah. And then you slowly started seeing that dim happen again. And it was just back to how it was, you know? It was a good- It was a solid maybe six- It was maybe eight months, nine months of like- Yeah. Where it was okay. But then like every day you just saw it and just diminished back down to it. And I think it was at that point when the final like straw, when you were like- When you guys actually separated for real, for real, this last time, like it was probably the- I think the dimmest you ever had been in your life.

Courtney - 00:36:55:

Yeah.

Maggie - 00:36:55:

Like the most fragile,

Dana - 00:36:58:

like, I don't know, scared, fragile.

Courtney - 00:37:01:

I remember like thinking like, like for a- For a while, like during that period, like there's a lot of mental things that go on, which you know. Like- actual skill am I bringing to the table? Like, what am I just besides Courtney? And that's not a skill I can put on a resume. Like, what's your skill, Courtney? Being Courtney. I'm good at that, you know? Like, but that's what it felt like. Like, what am I actually good at? Because your mind is so spacey and like, you can't like really super focus on anything because you've like lost yourself. Well, and I remember feeling like I was telling somebody, and I'm sure that you felt this way, is like... Like, I just feel unmoored. Yeah. Like, literally, I feel like I am a buoy, and I am just, like, subject to whatever wave comes my way. And, like, I'm tied to nothing. Like, literally nothing. So, like, whatever just happens to happen is what I'm going to be subject to and how I'm going to react. But I felt— unmoored.

Maggie - 00:37:50:

It's like, how did I get this fragile? Yeah. Which sends you even further into a spiral. When you were someone who was born with this false sense of confidence. Your assholeness. Your assholeness, your intuition, tomato, tomato, whatever you want to call it, right? When you are looking yourself in the mirror and you're timid. And you're afraid. It is an identity crisis. And it's like. When did I get so fragile and will I ever be strong again? I don't know if you felt the same way, but that's how I felt. Oh, sure, yeah. Like I am so in this. Black hole. What do I even bring to the table? And what do I do with this? Do I give up on

Courtney - 00:38:24:

everything that I've been working for? Well, I think that I had to, and I want to get to like, what are some of the things that you went through? I think for me, I had to get to the point where I was like. Fuck it. These fears aren't going to control me. I'm going to face them. The worst thing's going to happen, and it's still going to be better off because I'm going to be me at the end. What's the worst thing? And I did. For me, I sat there with Mikael. I was like, I don't want to be married to you, but I don't want to lose my fucking business. You did nothing to deserve it, and I don't want to give you any piece of it. And that's what I am terrified about. Because I know I'm going to be a fine mom to my kids. I know that I'm going to be making all my—I've made it on my own all these years, right? And I'm not saying it didn't contribute on some level, like being with the kids or being a warm body when I needed a warm body. But as it pertained to all the decisions and the direction that our family went, it was me. It was always me. And— I literally said it out loud. I was like, but you know what? If that's the worst thing that happens and I retain Courtney at the end, I'm still going to be better off. And I had to face it. Like, I literally had to face it. Yeah. And it was like, those were like the first steps that I was like, okay, yeah, you've got this, Courtney. You've got it.

Maggie - 00:39:26:

It's getting that fight back. In whatever way that you can. Like what you just said, that's your fight coming back. And I think that is synonymous with that false confidence. It's your fight. It's your confidence. It's your everything. Dana, have you ever gone through? Something like that?

Courtney - 00:39:42:

No. I don't have. That was a profound, so profound.

Maggie - 00:39:48:

I view you as a very confident person.

Dana - 00:39:50:

But I'm actually not. Really? That's what's shocking about it is I'm very like self-deprecating. I put my weight in a lot of other people's opinions about me. I am, I have, I hold back a lot of my life because I'm terrified. I don't know if I can handle the criticism. Yeah. And it's like, there's certain things that like, where I feel confident in, like there's like, you know, even like our conversation yesterday, like I feel confident in the job that I'm doing. So like, I can take criticism from my employees because it's not going to affect me like in any like personal way. But there's other things like that. I have a really hard time, like, you know, so I don't, I don't, I don't want to know what you think. Like, I just don't. Please don't tell me. You know, but that's not, but there's, I mean, we're going through that obviously, but you know.

Maggie - 00:40:36:

You got that fight though. Yeah.

Dana - 00:40:38:

No, I think I, my biggest issue, like for me, when I've ever gone through like really hard times is not being accepted. And there has been very, very intense moments of my life when I have had to, when someone has basically said, I don't like who you are, but I can't separate, they're like either part of my family or whatever the case may be. Like I have to just, they're still there. Like I can't just be like, okay, peace out, you know? And I have a hard time. Dealing with that because my, so then my reaction and my instinct is to change who I am completely around them to be more palatable. Right. And it's absolutely exhausting and it's soul crushing because you are basically lying to yourself the entire time you're there. And, you know, and so it's, it's taken a long time for me to like recognize, like, it doesn't like, that's not, that's not my job to make someone else feel comfortable. Like it's just not for being myself, you know, obviously you're not going to, you know, be a jerk to be a jerk, but like,

Courtney - 00:41:38:

yeah. I'm more along the lines of like, oh, you don't like who I am. I don't like who you are. So what's it matter what your opinion is of me?

Dana - 00:41:46:

But when it's all wrapped up into other things, like, you know, my husband's happiness, my kid's happiness, like, you know, those relationships. So there's a line you have to balance. And I'm not saying that like I don't adjust things, but I just, I adjust my time. I adjust my expectations. I adjust my boundaries and all that stuff. But yeah, no, I mean, I think for me, the hardest, the hardest thing I've ever gone through, and this is a lot of like, because when Courtney got back with Mikhail, I basically like said, I'm done. Like, I can't be your sister right now because I thought it was like the worst thing she'd ever did. Because I was, and it was sad. I had a hard time with it. And so our relationship suffered. I would like, my parents like were going off the deep end. Like my in-laws didn't like me and were being total whatever. And I felt the exact same way. I felt like I am literally an orphan. I'm just an orphan. I'm just here by myself. I have no one else. There's nobody else in this world except for Sam, who did a great job getting me through that time for sure. You can go back on Facebook and read all about it. But like, it was like the sappiest post I've ever written in my life was that year. Really?

Courtney - 00:42:49:

I love you so much. I'm worn.

Dana - 00:42:52:

Gag me, which is like totally not what I do. We love love. Sam loves Dana. Oh, no, it's still the Wi-Fi password. If anyone is listening and you want subpar Wi-Fi. That's the password. But yeah, so definitely. But yeah, so I think it's definitely one of those things where I haven't had like super, super, super tragedy. I've had hard like phases, moments, you know. Yeah.

Maggie - 00:43:20:

For sure.

Courtney - 00:43:21:

So we knew this was going to go long. So we're definitely making this a two-parter. So we're going to finish up our conversation with Maggie and Convo with Sisters in our next episode. To learn more about our hustles, visit us on the gram at C&D Events at the Bradford and C. At anthem.house and at hustleandgather. And if you're interested in learning more about our speaking, training, or venue consulting, head to our website at hustleandgather.com.

Dana - 00:43:52:

And if you love us and you love this show, we'd be more than honored if you left a rating and a review.

Courtney - 00:43:56:

This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I'm Courtney.

Dana – 00:43:48:

And I'm Dana. And we'll talk to you next time on Hustle & Gather.