Dana - 00:00:00:

They say that when you don't care enough to fight, there's nothing left.

Courtney - 00:00:03:

Yeah, I think I didn't care enough to fight for a long, long time. Yeah. It's been a journey that I've – it's been hard, but I actually wouldn't change. Yeah. Because I feel like I'm the person that I am because of all of that. Yeah.

Dana - 00:00:23:

Welcome to Hustle & Gather, a podcast about inspiring the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I'm Dana.

Courtney - 00:00:29:

And I'm Courtney.

Dana - 00:00:29:

And you heard that right. After a well-deserved sabbatical to focus on her personal life and family, Courtney is back. And we couldn't be more excited.

Courtney - 00:00:37:

I'm so happy to be here. And I'm excited to talk with you about why exactly I decided it was time to take a break.

Dana - 00:00:44:

Yeah, no, it's been great. We had a great time with Honorary Sisters. Everyone was wonderful. It was a lot of fun. And definitely had new conversations, but I'm excited to have my podcast partner back.

Courtney - 00:00:52:

I know. It's fun to hear other people's opinions. Yeah. Yeah. I thought they were good. The episodes were good. They were. Yeah. Plus, these are all people we've known for like a decade. I know. Yeah.

Dana - 00:01:02:

So it's super fun. Yes, the conversation was easy. Yeah.

Courtney - 00:01:03:

Yeah. It does make it easy. For sure. Yeah, let's talk about not an easy conversation. Okay, let's talk.

Dana - 00:01:09:

This is a hard conversation. I know.

Courtney - 00:01:10:

Let's just jump in. So by the time this aired, I was married. Oh, yeah.

Dana - 00:01:14:

You'll be divorced.

Courtney - 00:01:14:

I'll be divorced. Yeah. So my divorce will be finalized in November of. 2023. I was married for 21 years. That's a long time. Which like I personally can't even wrap my mind around because like I don't know how you can be like 25 and married for 21 years. It's weird. Yeah. Got married at 20. 20 years old. 20 years old, yes. I was about to turn 21. But I was basically like a child bride, I would say.

Dana - 00:01:40:

Yeah, 21. But it was like four months later, three months later. It was June. You turned 21.

Courtney - 00:01:45:

Yeah, I turned 21 in September. Yeah, I know. But I think back now, like, and I, like, you know, interact with like some of the girls that we've hired or some of the interns that have been 21. And I'm like, oh my God, I know. Like who let me make that decision? Like, honestly, I mean, not that you were like super older, you're 22, but yeah, it's like every year in your 20s,

Dana - 00:02:03:

I feel like a decade of growth. But I had a little bit of a different experience too. I got four years out of my parents' house in college. You only had like... A year out of our parents' house. Like you lived with them all through college.

Courtney - 00:02:17:

Yes, because I was very concerned about our parents' bottom line, which you were not.

Dana - 00:02:20:

I understand why. I'm just saying it's a different experience. Like you have a different amount of like – it's a different type of growing up for sure. Yeah. You know,

Courtney - 00:02:29:

Yeah, and I feel like there is a lot of, like, religious pressures around that, and there is a lot of that unpacking that's happened too for me, like in the last, I would say decade or so, where it's like, you know, what you're taught as a child and that when you experience as an adult, it doesn't really- Very different. Yeah, kind of like a match up. And also like that kind of like turning the other cheek, like everything is forgivable and God's going to fix everything. Like I have to call BS. Like actually that's not the truth. I'm like, why isn't therapy taught in religion? Honestly, like a whole different podcast. But I feel like all of these things could have contributed to a better outcome for marriages and me and people in general.

Dana - 00:03:10:

That's actually my favorite one of my favorite Taylor Swift quotes is what you don't have to forgive and forget to move on. You can do none of those things and still move on. Oh, I know. Like it's, but you're so taught that in order to have a healthy relationship or to fix this problem, you have to forgive and forget. And I'm like, you know, there's things that you don't have to forgive and forget to move on and to change and to grow from.

Courtney - 00:03:31:

I felt like the first five or six years were difficult, for sure. I remember right after I got married, I knew going into it that it wasn't ideal, but I felt like I could fix it. I could make it better, that I would be good for this person. And he always, Mikhail always said to me, like, wow, like, your world is so much larger than mine. Like, you've shown me there's so much more possibilities, you know, than I imagined. Thought that there were, et cetera. And I do think I tend to be a pretty like optimistic person, like to a fault in general. So I feel like I felt obligated to keep expanding his world in some way, but I think I knew like instinctually, I remember after we got engaged, this is before I got married, I remember looking at him and saying like, I really feel like I'm going to lose my Courtney as I'm in this relationship, like I knew it then. Like I was so afraid of losing my identity and like. Maybe I'm a prophet, but that certainly is what happened in my 30s. It wasn't necessarily right away. But right after I got married, that first year, it was a super existential crisis. We have a lot of funny stories about that. We can all talk about when I cut my own hair because I was so depressed and I gave myself bangs. But yeah, it was all kind of related to that. I just kind of was in this space of not knowing who I was.

Dana - 00:04:48:

Yeah, but it was like, but I mean, to back up your whole life.

Courtney - 00:04:52:

A change in a year.

Dana - 00:04:53:

Yes, because your whole life you were told, you told everyone you wanted to be a doctor, which is why you breezed through high school. It's why you breezed through college because. You took the MCATs and you were going to go to medical school. And so you're like, I need to get a jumpstart on it, which is why you finished undergrad at 20. Like you were a graduate from college at 20.

Courtney - 00:05:08:

I know. I graduated December of 20.

Dana - 00:05:10:

I know. I know. Like you had just turned 20.

Courtney - 00:05:12:

I used to be very smart.

Dana - 00:05:13:

You still are very smart. And then you got married and all of a sudden there was no dream. Like you didn't know what you wanted to do. Medical school was off the table. And I think for me for many years I thought that was – because you got married. Yeah. Because it's not what you wanted, which I think in conversations you said you just realized you didn't want to be a doctor.

Courtney - 00:05:37:

Yeah. I didn't. I wasn't like super committed to it. I think I would have been a fine doctor. Sure. Like I think I would have been fine. But at that point I didn't know if I wanted to like commit to the extra years of it, if that's something that I wanted to do or not.

Dana - 00:05:46:

But do you think that if you had not gotten married, that was a path you would have gone down? Or would you have had a similar slightly existential crisis graduating from school, not knowing what you wanted to do?

Courtney - 00:05:58:

I don't know if I would have ended up on that path, but I probably would have ended up in some sort of future education, for sure. Like I think at that point I really, like, about like a Peace Corps type thing. Like I was very passionate about like women's health and other countries. And like I had many things that I was like had a passion for that. I guess I felt like.

Dana - 00:06:20:

You couldn't have any more.

Courtney - 00:06:22:

I don't even know if it was that. Like I can't even – I don't even know if it was that. Like I – like when I look back on it like from like a, you know, like a 2020 perspective, it's like – Like my body knew. Like I knew like it wasn't the best decision for me. And like my body was keeping the score of that, if that makes sense. But mentally I didn't know. And that's like a theme for my whole life. It's like my body will tell me that it's upset before my head knows that it is. Like I don't feel my emotions in my head. Like sometimes I'll get overwhelmed with emotion and I don't know exactly what it's tied to. I just know that, wow, I have to like feel through this moment. And then somewhere in the middle of feeling through, it's like, oh, that's what I'm upset about. Yeah. But like. Things like blood pressure or like cholesterol or like my stomach getting upset or all those things are things that will happen before I actually know that I'm upset, which is not super helpful in like, you know, decision-making abilities. So I think definitely learning that, I think was, uh, Keys to being more successful in life, for sure.

Dana - 00:07:22:

Okay, so you got married. Got married. Went through a tough spell. Yeah. And then I think things were okay. They were okay, yeah.

Courtney - 00:07:30:

They were okay for like— Four or five years, I would say.

Dana - 00:07:33:

Until you had a baby.

Courtney - 00:07:34:

Until I had a baby. And then it all. There was a point, I remember, I was like 26, and I just wanted a baby. Like, I hadn't even thought about it. Like, it wasn't even on my radar until one day it just popped on my radar. And I was like, I want a baby. I don't care who impregnates me at this point. Like, I want a baby. And Mikhail says that, I don't feel like we ever, like, didn't talk about having kids. Like, we didn't specifically talk about having kids. Like, oh, I want, like, X number of kids or I saw myself, whatever. I've always been kind of a little more, like, go with the flow. Like, when it feels right, it feels right. But I never didn't see kids in my future. Yeah. I just didn't necessarily know when. But it's when we got pregnant with Mason that it all just kind of, and he's almost, he's 15. Yeah. When it all just kind of like hit the fan. Like all of the stuff from Mikhail's childhood and past reared up. It was also during, Mikhail, or Mason, was born in 2008. So it was like during like the whole like financial crisis. Mikhail lost his job while I was pregnant with Mason and then like proceeded not to get another one for. Years basically and I think that really affected things. I think I resented going back to teaching at that point too. Uh, And Dana can also attest to this. After I had Mason, I was a little crazy over that baby. Like, I was convinced that everybody wanted to steal my baby for a good, like, four months. Such that I, like, screwed shut the window because it was in his room, which is probably a fire hazard. Because it was so close to the deck that I thought for sure someone was going to come into the back deck, open the window, and steal my baby. Mm-hmm. I grew out of that. It's true.

Dana - 00:09:11:

Hormones are a crazy thing.

Courtney - 00:09:12:

They are crazy. It was crazy. And I was like a Nazi about like breastfeeding him. Oh, I know. Like the child never had formula. Yeah.

Dana - 00:09:19:

I think we had him overnight for the first time and you were like, at all costs, do not. I was like, what if he's actually, call me. I'm like, okay. But you gave me a can of formula just in case. And I remember he was, mom was actually there that night too. I could not get him to stop crying. And I was like, I can't have kids. I can't get this baby to stop crying.

Courtney - 00:09:38:

Yes. Because he was probably starving. He probably was starving. Yeah, I know.

Dana - 00:09:41:

As big as he is now. I know. I mean, good gracious. I know.

Courtney - 00:09:45:

He's like six foot three.

Dana - 00:09:45:

He was like a normal sized baby though.

Courtney - 00:09:48:

Yeah, all my kids, like I think I've said this before, a fun story, are like within half an ounce of each other of birth weight.

Dana - 00:09:52:

But even like within his first year to two, he was tall. He started getting taller around two. Yeah. But like that first like 24 months, he was like a normal-sized kid.

Courtney - 00:10:03:

I know. He fit into normal-sized clothes.

Dana - 00:10:04:

I know. He wasn't like – and I had like these massive babies who just like – became normal at two. I don't know.

Courtney - 00:10:11:

Henry's like a tiny, almost 12-year-old, and he was like the largest baby.

Dana - 00:10:14:

I know. Yeah, he was pretty big.

Courtney - 00:10:16:

He was a pretty big baby. He was long. He was, yeah. Yeah, he was super long. Anyways, digressed. Yeah, I know. So I feel like it was all like kind of then, like where it just really like started to fall apart and to unravel. And I think there was, and I've said this often, like some like mental health things going on that I felt like, you know, we'd go to therapy and help support him through. And like, again, I'm like eternally hopeful. Like it's going to get better. It's going to get better. It's going to get better. And then when we... I mean, you can speak to this. Like, when we all, like, moved on site, like, right – when we were getting ready to open the Bradford, I think it was like I think for me at that point, I was like, I couldn't hide it anymore. Do you know what I'm saying? For sure. It was all out in the open. It was shocking. Everyone was seeing it. So I think even for you, it was shocking. Is this what's been going on, basically. Yeah.

Dana - 00:11:05:

Well, yeah, so like the way that story kind of went was, and I remember it probably slightly differently that we, Had this crazy idea that we wanted to open this venue. And it was literally, we did spend a lot of time together. We did. Because.

Courtney - 00:11:20:

There's pictures of it.

Dana - 00:11:22:

Yeah, because we had kids together. Like, we always spend holidays together. We spent our birthday, all that stuff. We spent a lot of time together. And I remember we were at your house, and we talked about this thing, and we had found this piece of property. Like, just, I probably was all drinking. I don't really know. And then the next day, we used to spend the night at your house all the time. We used to just stay the night. And the next day, we drove out to this property. It's out in Garner, Johnson County.

Courtney - 00:11:47:

It was in Garner, yeah.

Dana - 00:11:49:

And it was a perfect piece of property. And it had this cute little A-frame house on it. It was cute. And we went back, and we had just bought a house. And we go back, and we talk about it. And I remember you weren't really saying anything, but I remember Michael very adamantly was like, we are not selling this house. Like, if we're going to do this, you and Sam have to sell your house. Like, we have too much invested in this. Like, we're not doing it. At the time, and Sam will tell you this, that was red flag number one. Yeah. That there was no camaraderie into trying to figure out how to do it and why we had to sell our house to make it happen. Obviously, it meant the timing wasn't right, all that stuff. But we went along with it. Poor Sam. Bless his heart. And we put our house up. We made an offer on the land. We put our house on the market. Our house sold in 24 hours. And we never got the deal because the guy actually didn't really want to sell it. He had to, because it was such a large piece of land, he had to subdivide it.

Courtney - 00:12:45:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:12:45:

And he wasn't willing to do it. And come to find out, as a real estate agent should have told us, he was basically in a power struggle with his wife.

Courtney - 00:12:53:

He had multiple properties and he had to sell one.

Dana - 00:12:56:

He had to sell one. And whatever sold first is what got sold. And so he made it really difficult to sell his property. Yeah. So at that time, we're like, okay, great. And then we bought the house in Apex and got pregnant and started having kids, dreams on hold or whatever. And then it kind of all got reprised together or whatever. But I feel like that's where a lot of it was. You very much drove the ship into the dream. And I remember us having many conversations when it came back up and we found this piece of property. And I was trying to convince Sam this was the right thing to do. Because at that time, we were living like penny to penny, paycheck to paycheck. We had nothing. We were barely making our mortgage. It was really, really tight. And I remember me and you were talking and you were just like, all you could say was, it's financial freedom. It's financial freedom. So I'm telling Sam, I was like, it's financial freedom.

Courtney - 00:13:43:

Yeah. It's going to be free.

Dana - 00:13:46:

I know. And like looking back, I totally see where you were trying to create that because you knew you weren't going to get it any other way. And for me, I probably would have been fine. Yeah. Like we probably would have been okay. Like it was 100% like the right move. It was very hard for many years, but like. Yeah, I remember thinking like, oh, this is obviously what it is, but I didn't realize how much you needed it. Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Until like later on in the process of all of it.

Courtney - 00:14:18:

Yeah, I think that I knew, I think that I always knew. Yeah. Like, there was never a point that I thought that Mikhail was going to support us. Yeah. Ever. Like, I always knew that it was going to be me.

Dana - 00:14:28:

So interesting.

Courtney - 00:14:29:

I know. And my decisions. And I think on some level, like, I was okay with that.

Dana - 00:14:33:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:14:34:

Like, I am, like. Pretty decisive about those things. I think I'm pretty, I'm a hard worker and I, I think I have great ideas. And at that point, I was smart, remember? So I thought for sure my brain was going to get me through. Not realizing that that's also what he believed. Yeah. Right? So, like... I think he thought and he would tell you that it was always going to be me. Yeah. And I think that works in like some situations. Like I have seen couples that like it's stay at home dads and the moms working. Like I don't necessarily subscribe to those like gender roles and norms, but it takes like – two partners.

Dana - 00:15:13:

Well, it has to be agreed upon, too. It has to be a plan, not just something you fall into. Right.

Courtney - 00:15:18:

But it can't necessarily be like you don't want to work or be a parent. Right. Right.

Dana - 00:15:23:

Pick one.

Courtney - 00:15:23:

You have to pick one, right? So it was very much like that, where it was like I was fine with that and I knew that I was going to have to make the way, and I knew that if we were going to be successful, it was going to be on my decisions. Because it was very clear that... That wasn't something that he thought about or... Wanted to do or anything like that. I didn't think it was going to go as badly as it went for a while. For sure. But I certainly knew that I was more invested than Mikhail was in it.

Dana - 00:15:54:

Like into the business?

Courtney - 00:15:55:

Yeah, like into the idea of it.

Dana - 00:15:57:

Oh, yeah. No, it was rough. I mean, I think for a lot of it is that... You trust people. I mean, like I said, I mean... When Gale was at our wedding, my brother wasn't. Mm-hmm. Like he was somebody, and I still, you know, care about him as a person or whatever, but somebody you trusted and you felt like had our best interests at heart. And I think that he did to the capacity that he could.

Courtney - 00:16:22:

Yeah. Until like it was really clear that he did not.

Dana - 00:16:24:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:16:24:

So I think like that, like, Obviously, we've talked about when Bradford was very difficult. It brought out the best in everybody's personality.

Dana - 00:16:32:

No, but like, I think for me, what it did and exactly what you said, it was like, you couldn't hide it. And I recognized very much how controlled your life was in every way. Like your emotions were controlled.

Courtney - 00:16:47:

Oh yeah. Wow, that's been a learning curve this year. Yeah.

Dana - 00:16:51:

And, but at the same time, I could see it, but I honestly didn't have compassion for it. Mm-hmm. Because I was so stressed out and I was so pissed. Like, I was so resentful. Yeah.

Courtney - 00:17:01:

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So, yeah, I feel like that's kind of, like, where, when you started Bradford and when it was, like, all kind of out in the open is where it became very obvious. Right. Like, the disparities between, like, what we're bringing to the table, what you're bringing to the table, even in just terms of, like, the mental ability and stability. Right.

Dana - 00:17:16:

Right

Courtney - 00:17:18:

And I felt like, And I'm not like a comparison person at all, actually. Like I've always just kind of been like my own person probably since like ninth grade or whatnot. Like I'm going to be Courtney, whatever the rest of you. I felt at that point, like, I was like, wow, like, my kids are getting the short end of the stick. Like, I'm getting the short end of the stick. Like, I'm not, we're not able to do the things or provide the things or, like, even, like, have the. Stability at that point that I could see was in yours and Sam's life because we're living on the same property. Right. You know, and like, it's so much harder over here. Yeah. And it's like so much easier over there. And I'm not saying it was easy for anybody, but it just felt like even to the point of, and I know we've talked about your in-laws, like to the point of like the support of like in-laws and like people stepping up and helping and like all of those things, there was none of that on our side. Right. So I just kind of felt this huge like gap and disparity.

Dana - 00:18:09:

Yeah, and I totally see that. And I can see it like now, like obviously everything is different when you look at it, like you can look at the past forever. But I think that what was hard, and I think about it now, and I've asked myself and I've asked my therapist many hard questions. Like if I had known all this, like if you had come to me and said, this is really, really, really hard. I need you in this way. I need you X, Y, Z or whatever. Would I have reacted the same way that I did? In the ways that I reacted. Because there's a lot of, like, that time because I was so angry. I was so mad. And I was resentful about having to honestly be another parent to your kids. Because I didn't want to parent my kids. Because your kids, because I just wanted to be their aunt. You know? And, like, how much would that have changed? Yeah. Like, and so there was this, and I call it your goldfish period. Because you were a goldfish. Like, you just kept swimming. But you forgot everything. And I would say, you know, and you would have, and not to, like, make this sound like this was, like, doom and gloom the entire time. But, like, you would have these, what I call these peaks of, okay, they're riding a high right now. Like, they're at the top of the roller coaster.

Courtney - 00:19:14:

Yeah, but it's going to go down.

Dana - 00:19:15:

Everything's good. And it would last a long time. It would last three, four, five, six months. But you knew it was going to plummet. And every time, the roller coaster got lower and lower and lower. Sure. So it took longer and longer for it to get back up. And there were times when the peak was 18 months. It was, like, a long time.

Courtney - 00:19:31:

Right?

Dana - 00:19:32:

And so, like, I felt. I felt like there was never a point when you were real.

Courtney - 00:19:39:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:19:39:

With, like, you know what I mean? Like, you lived in that survival mode, but it's like you still wanted to keep it. Yeah. Insular.

Courtney - 00:19:48:

Oh, like beyond just inside the family? Yeah. Yeah, because I think... Like looking, like looking back, I can talk about this a little bit later. Like there was like a lot of shame. Yeah. Like, there was a lot of, like embarrassment and there was a lot of like, That's not who I know myself to be.

Dana - 00:20:06:

Right.

Courtney - 00:20:06:

But yeah, I'm stuck in this situation that I don't know how to get out of. Yeah. Because like at the time, like right when we built Bradford, I was pregnant with Liam. Like, okay, here's this lovely gift from God that was unplanned. Yeah. That I love to death. But I was like, wow, great timing, you know? And I remember it was 2017. I was taking Liam to school. And I know I've told this story before, I think, on this podcast. Maybe I have. Maybe I haven't. I don't know. And there was a family. I was there. I can't remember her name, but she was old, she was an older lady. She got married older and like older in life, later in life. She was in her forties. She had three girls and her husband always rode bikes in the morning and he had just been hit by a bike and died.

Dana - 00:20:49:

Oh yeah. That was my, I remember I was so upset then. That was someone that I went to, it was in my mops group. And I remember I was so upset that night and I called, I called you crying and you're like, who died? And I, and you just said it totally like not intentional. Yeah. And I was like, I was like, everyone's fine, but this just happened. And I'm like, it was really upsetting.

Courtney - 00:21:06:

It was really upsetting. Cause it was at our preschool. So I remember the preschool was talking about it. Like that's kind of like how I heard like the next day. And I think I was dropping William off or something. I don't remember. Because all our kids went to the same preschool. I remember sitting in that car and I was so upset. Because I mean it was- Yeah, it was very upsetting. She had a little baby, like two months old, basically, new, new baby. It was so upsetting. And I remember sitting in that car and thinking, Why did that guy die?

Dana - 00:21:32:

Yeah. Why wasn't it Mikhail?

Courtney - 00:21:34:

Hmm. Wouldn't it be so convenient if he died? Like, why did the good ones die and this one still left? Literally plaguing my life is like how I felt. And I was like— oh shit, like I'm in a dark spot. Yeah. Like I am not, this is not a relationship that's going well. Like when you're wishing, and I think you know.

Dana - 00:21:53:

You don't actually wish him dead.

Courtney - 00:21:56:

But I did at that point.

Dana - 00:21:57:

Okay, maybe you did.

Courtney - 00:21:57:

No, I was like, if you were to drop off now, my life would be so much easier. And like looking back, it's because I didn't have to make the hard decision that I knew. Like I knew I had to make it. Like I knew it wasn't going well. Like I knew all of that goes affecting my relationship with you, was affecting my relationship with my kids. What am I showing my kids? Like that was one of the things too. Like is this what I want? Would I be okay with Nora living in this situation? Like hell no, absolutely not. You know, at that point, I think, and I remember Dana can tell you this too, I looked up at my phone, like, what are the parameters for being verbally abused? Like, what is it? You know, like, is this, is this, like, I don't even know. Like, is this abuse? Is this not abuse? It was, you know, like a lot of name calling and gaslighting, which I hate that word, by the way. And, you know, all of those types of things. I realized I was like being manipulated like at every point. And so. That was like the end of, I think, 2017. It could have been 2018 because Liam hadn't gone to pre-K yet. But it was 2019 that I was like, decided to separate. Like it was just like too much. Like I like couldn't handle it. It was like. Fighting all the time. He was very, like, explosive, like, in my face. He made me feel unsafe. He got in Mason's face a couple of times, making him feel unsafe. Mason still talks about this to this day. You know, it's like, wow, this is just really unhealthy. Like we are not creating an environment that's conducive for like kids growing up. We separated.

Dana - 00:23:27:

And how long was it, like eight months?

Courtney - 00:23:30:

It wasn't even eight months. It was like maybe six months. Okay. Yeah. And he moved to the bottom of the basement, someone's basement. Yeah. In Sanford and I think he had the kids occasionally, like it wasn't like a 50, 50 situation. They were mostly with me and they went to him. And at that point, a lot of stuff from his past started creeping up. Like his dad was on trial and they called him in as like a witness and he was telling me that he was going to kill himself. And I had like all of this like overwhelming guilt that my children were going to be fatherless. Not that I hadn't wished it like a year and a half before, but that my children were going to be fatherless because of like these decisions that I made. And I really feel like you know, looking back, there was a lot of manipulation to get back in the house, but also like, like I just wasn't ready. Like I wasn't strong enough to do it. And I feel like One of the big casualties of that decision was our relationship. Yes. Because I feel like this is where there was like a literal.

Dana - 00:24:27:

You like did a hit and run for me on that day.

Courtney - 00:24:30:

Because I couldn't tell you. I was like.

Dana - 00:24:31:

We were coming back from a NAC meeting. And this is so we had. So we went to our parents and got the kids season passes to Disney. And so that May, we all went. Like they got a season pass at Christmas. You guys hadn't separated at that point, I don't think.

Courtney - 00:24:49:

We might have been separated on that trip.

Dana - 00:24:51:

Oh, you were, but I'm saying when you had the tickets, you weren't.

Courtney - 00:24:53:

Right, but he went.

Dana - 00:24:54:

Oh, no, no, I know. This is part of the story. As he went to it, and I made sure we had a house big enough for everyone to have their own room. Like you and Mikhail did not have to share a room.

Courtney - 00:25:03:

He would not sleep in a separate room.

Dana - 00:25:04:

He would not sleep in a separate room. And you were like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And I knew on that trip, I remember I told Sam, I was like, this is not going how it should go. Not the trip. The trip was fine. I mean, just like your relationship or whatever. And so it had to have been June.

Courtney - 00:25:20:

It had to be a June-Nace meeting.

Dana - 00:25:22:

And you were driving. You drove me home.

Courtney - 00:25:25:

I did.

Dana - 00:25:26:

You pull onto the street, we're almost on the driveway, and you told me, me and Mikhail are getting back together,

Courtney - 00:25:30:

see you tomorrow, and open the door. And I was like, what just happened? She's like, I cannot.

Dana - 00:25:36:

So I was very upset about it because I knew it was the wrong choice. Because I think partially, too, like from my perspective, it wasn't that I knew your marriage or anything like that. But what I knew is the person that I saw who you're becoming is who I remembered who I, who was my sister. Yeah. Because there was like very, and you know, early on in your marriage, I felt like you still kept your Courtney-isms, right? It was just during this like kind of 10-year really dark place that like I could I saw that it was fading away and like I didn't recognize you were yeah and so when you started separating I started seeing like oh she's funny and she's fun and like I felt like you were a great business partner and at the same time like we made decisions like to help you out like financially not I mean Sam but the business whatnot we made all this stuff and so and I was so happy to do it so then when you got back together like it felt very like about me, which it shouldn't have been about me at all. Like I, as my therapist has walked me through that whole scenario of time. But it was very hard. I remember that night I didn't sleep at all. Not a wink. And I called my friend, Beth. We had coffee the next day. She was kind of going through something very similar. She was not helpful, actually, because she was literally, you two are like so identical in the journey. She was like in that same place. I was like, this is not helpful. And then I called your best friend, Krista, and I said, tag, you're it. Like, I'm out. She did. Like, I can't do this anymore. I can't be the person. I have to create this boundary. And it was really hard. Yeah. It was like a really hard time. And so we created the boundary that we don't talk about our personal lives at work ever. So I never knew it was going on for. Probably three years.

Courtney - 00:27:16:

Yeah, or more, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Dana - 00:27:18:

Truly, it was like two or three years until you finally started like slowly...

Courtney - 00:27:24:

Talking about it. We still did like holidays and like all those things. I think it's the kids.

Dana - 00:27:29:

Like I made rules. Like we're not drinking anymore. We're together. No one's allowed to drink.

Courtney - 00:27:33:

Cause Mikhail would get like belligerent. Yeah. It was so obnoxious. It was.

Dana - 00:27:37:

And it ruined every holiday. So it's like, we're not, we're not drinking. If you like, and we're adults, we don't have to drink to get through situations. You know, really wanted to a lot.

Courtney - 00:27:46:

I'm not sure that's the truth any longer. Yeah. Sometimes I do feel like I have to drink to get through a situation. I know.

Dana - 00:27:50:

But that was definitely like all those things. There were boundaries in place. But it was tough. Yeah.

Courtney - 00:27:56:

Yeah, so tough.

Dana - 00:27:57:

So then you got back together.

Courtney - 00:27:58:

Yeah, we got back together and walked them through that trial and got to their side of it. And... Then like nothing changed.

Dana - 00:28:06:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:28:07:

Like literally nothing changed. Like the same patterns, the same like – like selfish behaviors, still was like unenjoyable.

Dana - 00:28:14:

But then it was blown up because he was out of work. Because you went through a very like honeymoon phase where he had a great job, he was making a ton of money. You guys were so like financially solvent, like everything felt easy. In that part of the world. And then it all kind of fell apart.

Courtney - 00:28:32:

Yeah, but even like in the middle of that, like looking back at that was... He didn't contribute anything to like any of our bills. Like none of our mortgage. But I know that now.

Dana - 00:28:41:

Right.

Courtney - 00:28:42:

Right. None of the like things that I still paid. Because at that point we weren't making like tons and tons of money. You know.

Dana - 00:28:48:

We didn't make any money until 2021 honestly.

Courtney - 00:28:52:

Yeah. Right. But it was like okay. But it was like we can maybe like get off this property. Right. You know like there was room for some vision. And then that kind of shut down. And like. He didn't work for years at that point. I mean, to this day. Hopefully, at this podcast airing, he will have a job. But yeah, like it was very difficult. And I remember it was 2022. And we were getting ready to celebrate our 20th anniversary. And this is like spring. And I looked at him and I was like, I am not giving you another decade of my life. I was like, I'm done. Like, I can't do it. I was like, I've given you. All that I can give and I have to prioritize me. I said, and for me at that moment, It was yes about the kids. Like, we had some really, like, dark days, like, just in general. And the kids were watching it all. And, like, they're older now. Like, I have a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old and a 10-year-old. So they're seeing it. They have questions about it. But my blood work was coming back terribly. Like my liver enzymes were all over the place. My cholesterol was super high. I was having high blood pressure. Like literally my, again, getting back to kind of my original statement, my body's freaking out, like before my head's freaking out. And I talked to a doctor and she's like, we can't trace it to anything but literally stress. Like literally just like the stress and pressure of anxiety was like causing my body to start shutting down. And I looked at him and I was like, I have to choose me. I can't keep choosing you. You're never going to choose our kids. It's always going to be me. So I have to choose me so I can be there for our kids and for me. Like equally as important, right? Like I believe in that. And I was like, I need for you to get a job. Like I'm not kicking, I'm not pushing you out of the house. I'm not saying it's like this like terrible, unamicable situation, but I need you to figure it out. I need for you to get out of the house. Like I'm building a house. I don't want you to move into it with me. Like I need a clean start basically. Like we're done. So I like waited it out like eight or nine months. It's a slow burn. It's a slow burn. Oh my gosh. You know, there's, I'm not saying that's the right way to do it. Probably the wrong way to do it at that point. But never got a job, like never got out of the house. Like it was clear that he was like literally like never going to do it. So at one point I was like, look, I found this house for you. It's near the house that I'm building. Here's a year of rent. Go have your gap year, like figure it out. But I need you to leave. I'm going to move on. And that's kind of like how we ended it for sure. You're out. I stayed in that house, finished building the house, moved the kids in. But I knew like at that point, like, it was going to be uphill. Like it was hard for the kids. The transition was hard. I was like not in a good mental space. Like just even now, like just getting back to where it's like, I can think in a sequential way. Like your head gets all fuzzy and like your inability to focus. Like everything would distract me. So it was like hard to even wrap my mind around getting anything done. And it was a lot, like it was just was a lot. So I think I said to Dana, And we had a hard time at the beginning of this year. Yeah, so we had like the biggest hot you've ever had as sisters in March and I can't 100% figure out like where – that like, where it came from or where it originated from, but I feel like really me making the decision to like this is the end. I think Dana had doubts. Is this really the end? I think in some ways for sure. I don't think she believed it. And I think that she was just like, we're going through this again. And my therapist says, it's kind of like a mobile and you're like everything's in balance. But she's like, you know, you're pulling the string over here and you're shaking the whole system right now. Right. She said it causes uneasiness and unrest. So it May not even come from any like knowledgeable place like this kind of big blow up. But just know that you're shaking the mobile and things are falling out.

Dana - 00:32:45:

Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that there's a lot of things in play for that, certainly. But I think what was healthy about it at the end, like the end result of all of it, it was very terrible, it was like March to May.

Courtney - 00:32:58:

It was a long time.

Dana - 00:32:59:

We didn't talk.

Courtney - 00:33:00:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:33:01:

Which is a very long time.

Courtney - 00:33:02:

My favorite moment was when you moved us into the office and I'm like, oh, fuck, I got to go move into the shed with her.

Dana - 00:33:08:

It's just going to be me and her. We're not even talking. Well, you put your AirPods in every day.

Courtney - 00:33:11:

I put my AirPods in every day. Every day. Every day. Yes.

Dana - 00:33:13:

And then I would try to ask her a question and she couldn't hear me, so I had to text her. It was like, seriously. Yep. So frustrating.

Courtney - 00:33:20:

Hashtag sister life.

Dana - 00:33:21:

I know. But no, I think that the healthy spot and where I think where I Like. Struggle to express this. And I think that there's a lot of past and I think where our biggest fight to me, the biggest fight was being held accountable to past actions where which is hard for me because I... I don't, I live my life in black and white, but I know it's not black and white, but I firmly believe in like, I try really hard to, to be a good person. And I know that I've made terrible choices in my life. I know I've said terrible things and done terrible things. And like, I always try to be better about it. And like, I try to like not repeat that behavior as much as I can. And for me, it was finally, when you said, I'm taking a step back, I was like, thank God. Not because you couldn't do it, but because I knew you needed to. And for me, it was more of, I'd rather you say, I need you to take this burden. And I know it's going to be a burden. Like, I know it's going to be a lot on your shoulders. But you trust me enough that I could do it. And that I wanted to do it. And I think during that kind of phase at the beginning of the year, you were still trying to be super Courtney. You were trying to be there for your kids emotionally, there for yourself emotionally, go through this divorce, run this business. Build a house. Build a house. Like, continue to do all the things that occupy all of our time. And all I could see is you're failing at all of it.

Courtney - 00:34:47:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:34:48:

In the nicest way possible. Because you're failing at all of it. And it's like, okay, I can't handle your kids' emotions. I mean, I can handle it, but I'm not the one that's going to get your kids through this. I mean, I can show up for them and all that stuff. But, like, that's not something I can help you with. So I think that's where it was nice to finally like you recognize, you know what, like I can't do it. And this is what I need to do. And, you know, and I think. I feel like that fight was the reason why it happened.

Courtney - 00:35:15:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:35:16:

Even if that wasn't like the reason, it was more of like, I don't want to see you. So how can we separate enough so we don't have to see you?

Courtney - 00:35:25:

Yeah. Okay. Not talking to you anymore.

Dana - 00:35:26:

We're done. That's right.

Courtney - 00:35:29:

Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely thought that way. Like, I was like, okay, wow, this is... A lot. Like the thought of... I mean, on every level, like, moving off the property, like, transitioning in the office, like, going through that. Because, I mean, again, like, My head and my body is disconnected. So, I mean, I was very upset with, like, no words to put to it. Like, it was just, like— I would get on my yoga mat in the morning and I would just cry, like I had no, with no thought as to why I am. And there was like definitely like a period of like mourning for me and then kind of getting back to like that thoughts of like what was so shameful and embarrassing is, and as I like step further and further away and I kind of watch Mikhail like in an existential way, like somewhat, he still affects my life greatly. Like don't get me wrong. I still have to, like, we're still working on setting boundaries and, like, all of those things, but, like, just kind of watching him. There was a process of like self-forgiveness that I had to go through. Like, wow, Courtney, you put yourself through that. Like you were living in that chaos for so long, longer than you knew you should have. Yeah. You know, and you put your kids through that chaos.

Dana - 00:36:40:

Right.

Courtney - 00:36:43:

And you. You didn't end it when you should have ended it. Like, and for whatever reason, like maybe it was an obligation. Maybe it was scared. Maybe it was. Some back religious guilt or whatever, like whatever the reason was. Or like divorce was the worst thing ever. You know, whatever the reason was, I knew I made the wrong decision. And even the kind of mourning that and letting that go.

Dana - 00:37:06:

It sucks.

Courtney - 00:37:07:

It does. It's so inconvenient.

Dana - 00:37:09:

But it's not that it's inconvenient. It just sucks when you recognize the role that you played in something so awful.

Courtney - 00:37:14:

Yeah, that you allowed it to continue on.

Dana - 00:37:17:

Because there's a lot of it, and I think, too, I mean, I think, you know, and even I can't have, obviously I haven't been through a divorce or anything, but I can, I've had friendship issues, I mean, our relationship, even whatever. But, like, when you get down to it, you just so want to say, I've done everything I can. Like, this isn't my fault. Like, I have literally put 100% into it, and I'm, you know, I've done all the right things, and then, you know, when you start looking at, back at it, you're like, well, No, this is the role that you played. And it's so hard to accept it.

Courtney - 00:37:47:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:37:47:

Because you don't want to accept that you're the cause of your own misery.

Courtney - 00:37:51:

Like I made like one of the most codependent humans. Because I was just going to take care of everything, and I did. Yeah. Like to the point where he couldn't even tell you what our mortgage was. Right. He didn't know any of our bills because I took care of all of it. And like that's not a partnership. No.

Dana - 00:38:09:

Like at all.

Courtney - 00:38:09:

Like I didn't act like a partner at all. Right. You know, I was like, well, I'm just going to fix it. I'm going to take control and I'm going to, you know, steer the ship and row the ship.

Dana - 00:38:19:

But it's hard to. Like I'm not afraid to like say you're being an asshole. Like you're not pulling your weight or whatever because I know I can have a fight with them in a healthy way. Yeah. But when you can't fight with somebody in a healthy way, it's hard to say, hey, like you're not pulling your weight here. Like you're not being the dad. You're not being this. Like it's cool if you don't want to work. But if you don't want to work, I need you to do X, Y, Z. So my life is easier. So maybe I can work a little more to make more money. Yeah. Like that's cool. Yeah. But like, you know.

Courtney - 00:38:45:

Yeah. It was definitely like. A conscious decision not to create a fight. Cause I was like, I'm too exhausted to fight. Like I'm so tired. I've put it all out. Like I don't have time.

Dana - 00:38:55:

Right.

Courtney - 00:38:56:

So all those things, and that is not a way to be in a relationship. Like that's not healthy at all.

Dana - 00:39:00:

Well, they say that. They say that when you don't care enough to fight, there's nothing left.

Courtney - 00:39:05:

Yeah, I think I didn't care enough to fight for a long, long time.

Dana - 00:39:07:

Yeah, because it means you don't really care about the person.

Courtney - 00:39:09:

Yeah, I mean, you know, like I would... You're not trying to fix it. I would care enough for like my children not to see... A ragey situation from their father. For sure. But it was definitely like, I hardly ever yelled at them. I never fought back. I was just like, give me my space. I'm done. It just wasn't worth it to me. The outcome wasn't worth it because it just was on repeat a lot of times. Why talk about this now? We're going to. Have the same conversation in a week with no change. So what's the point? What's the point, yeah. And I did feel that way. Like I was very much limiting my – emotional resource to the fact that, to the point that I didn't have really emotions about it. Yeah. You know, it was very like a matter of fact for me.

Dana - 00:39:50:

Yeah.

Courtney - 00:39:51:

So I've been on sabbatical. Yeah. So I shut it down. Like I did all the, Dana did lots of the extra traveling that we hadn't booked already for both of us. Did the Meredith class this last semester. Did the podcast, obviously. And then we kind of hunkered it down until like... What can I do that I can do from home or that I can just do from the office and still be there like when my kids get off the bus? Yeah. You know, make sure that they're transitioning fine. And I do feel like it's been – a good time. Like it's been good for me and it's been good for the kids and nothing fell apart. Nothing caught on fire.

Dana - 00:40:27:

No.

Courtney - 00:40:29:

Physically or metaphorically. And, you know, like it's... I learned a lot, like, through – even just through, like, the – It's great to not feel as It's great to not feel important. Like I actually kind of love that feeling. Yeah. Of feeling like I'm not holding anything up. Although occasionally I know, sometimes I do. But that I'm not that important to the success of our business. And I attribute that to like what we've built. Yes. For sure. You know, like the team, that we have all this infrastructure in place. Right. And the way that we've built it would allow me to do that. But I love being like the least important person on our team.

Dana - 00:41:04:

Yeah. It's been super interesting. I think it was, like I said, like the sabbatical was bred from a very hard and there was a It was definitely like, yeah, you're going through a divorce or whatever, but I feel like there was also a breaking point in the two of us at the same time of like this is not sustainable, like how we have created this life. There's so much like history. There's so much emotion. There's so much resentment. There's all of these things that have been bred into like this kind of moment or whatever. And it's been really good. Like, I mean, it was hard for sure. Like I said, it was super sad. Like there's things like I don't love. I mean, I love traveling by myself. I'm never by myself. But at the same time, like after one day, I'm like, oh, someone was here. You know, it's stuff like that. But I think what it did is it allowed us to really see like where, what we're really passionate about. And for me, it like definitely opened up a thing like, oh my gosh, like this is the path I want to take. Like I want to stop spinning my wheels in this direction. And I want to start doing this and I want to figure out how to get there in a way that can earn us money. And so I'm not like, so it's not a financial drain because I hustle and gather for a long time. Like it's, great, but it's not like it's not where we want it to be, you know? For sure. And a lot of it's because we haven't had the time to focus or any job, we haven't had a direction even. Like, yeah. You know, even For us, like this podcast, we started like, oh, it has to be about entrepreneurs. Well, you know, only entrepreneurs. But like we live in the hospitality space. Yeah, That is where we live. That is our zone of genius. That is what we do well. And what we love. And what we love. So why are we fighting it? Yeah. You know? So it's like all those things for sure kind of came to the surface. And so I feel like it's been like a really healthy, very healing.

Courtney - 00:42:58:

I definitely feel that way. And I feel like. For so long, like equals had to look like the same. I know. And I think just kind of getting around like, it's not going to be the same. Like it's literally not going to be the same. Like metaphorically and physically, our life is not going to look the same. You know, and that's okay. That's okay. Like literally that's okay. I remember like one of the conversations we had where like I dropped the ball. And Dana was like, I am not ready to stop. I know that you're, like, at a stopping point for this, and, like, maybe, like, this isn't what you want, but I have fed into your dream. Like, we're living in it right now. Like, the Bradford. It's true. Like, C&D and, like, all the crazy things that Dana says. Like, every business that she's in, it's because I had an idea, right? She's like, and now I need you to support mine. And I'm like, you know what? It's true. That's like so fair. Like literally so fair. Like, and it's fine. And I can say that in all certainty that I don't have guilt over it. I don't have like remorse over it. I don't have FOMO over it. Right. Like, if that's the direction that you want to take and, like, I can support you in it, that's like 100% what I want to do. Yeah. You know, and I feel so good

Dana - 00:44:09:

about that role.

Courtney - 00:44:12:

And, you know, Sometimes it's my turn on the stage, so to speak, too. Right. And I'm fine with that, too, you know? But it's like in this season of my life to be able to know that I can. Prioritize my family, prioritize what I need. And taking a step back, but still knowing that things are moving forward is like an invaluable gift. Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I really do appreciate it. Like I do. Like I appreciate you for that. I appreciate all the hard conversations. I appreciate the team. I appreciate it. Everything that goes into allowing that to happen. And cause I can't imagine the transition going any better than it has.

Dana - 00:44:53:

And it's so, I think what's, what's really neat too, and seeing again, like kind of going back to the 2019 Courtney, like saying, okay, this it's been interesting seeing you become the person that you are, where, where, where we were somewhere we were at experience. And I, we were sitting at lunch or dinner and out or breakfast. And I was like, why are you so sure of yourself? Like, where did this come from? She did tell me that. And not like in a mean way, but it was just kind of like, what in the world? Because it was so unlike how you've been for so many years

Courtney - 00:45:24:

But I always was. Like, I literally was born that way.

Dana - 00:45:26:

Yes, I know.

Courtney - 00:45:27:

I know.

Dana - 00:45:27:

But in a lot of ways, you still were at that time in certain areas, but you never were when it came to being a mom, being in a relationship, any of that stuff. Like, it was so different. But I think what's exciting to me and to see is like, Yeah, like your time, like what you want to speak about. There's so much in you. There's so much that you can. And I'm excited to see what that is. Because I feel like for so long, too, like with us speaking, it's been like very much like driven like by me in a lot of ways. Like, hey, this is our contest that we're doing. And you're just like, cool, sounds great. I'll put my own little spin on it, you know. But like being for you to be able to say like this is what I'm passionate about. This is what's changed my life.

Courtney - 00:46:06:

Yeah.

Dana - 00:46:06:

Like to see like what that is. You are starting to see small pieces of it starting to come together. Sure. Like we talked about it, but like I think that'd be super cool. Yeah. To see.

Courtney - 00:46:15:

Yeah, I'm super excited about the future and like all that it has to bring and build. I will say like divorce is no picnic. It's not fun to walk through. Happy to have it behind me. Yeah. But, uh, I think in general, and I can definitely speak to like, you know, finding yourself in a relationship as a whole another podcast, you know, whatever. But I think that. Even like thinking through Bradford and like the process, like even though it's scary doesn't mean that it's wrong. Right. And for a long time, like it seemed very scary. Like the thought of being divorced and like. Wow, I'm going to have even less control when he has the kids and I'm not going to be able to watch them. But working through all of those fears, there's a lot of – freedom on the other side of it. And sometimes the scary decisions are the best decisions for your life. It's very true. And I think this is a theme over and over again. Like we made lots of scary big decisions and it ended up being the best thing for our life. Right. So I think, you know, working through that, giving and forgiving yourself, giving yourself some grace. You know, getting back to me, you made the best decisions with the information you were given at the time. And you move through that. You know, I think in the end it's been. It's been good. Right. It's been a journey that I've – it's been hard, but I actually wouldn't change. Yeah. Because I feel like I'm the person that I am because of all of that.

Dana - 00:47:49:

To learn more about our hustles, visit us on the gram at C&D Events, at the Bradford Drive, at Anthem, and at Hustle & Gather. And if you're interested in learning more about our speaking, training, or venue consulting, head to our website at hustleandgather.com.

Courtney - 00:48:03:

Also, if you love us and you love this show, we would be more than honored if you left us a rating and a review.

Dana - 00:48:07:

This podcast is a production of Ear Fluence. I'm Dana.

Courtney - 00:48:10:

And I'm Courtney.

Dana - 00:48:10:

And we'll talk to you next time on Hustle & Gather.